#mypeaktransmoment

[dorade]

Hashtag on Twitter at the moment if anyone wants to add to it.

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/6dl3lm/peak_trans_v_tell_your_story_here/

This is another good peak trans source. Longer anecdotes, settle down with a coffee for a day.

I follow the reddit page, but have some misgivings about some of the comments there that actually do seem to me to be insensitive to people with body dysmorphia. There are also some excellent anecdotes.

Yes I know what you mean. I have winced at some of the insensitivities. Also feel they're undermining the argument when words become vicious.

Thank you for saying that. I have had a bad week and settled in for a long read last night and actually closed the page because of the insensitive comments. I really felt for the MtT who talked about their surgery and why they did it (with the recognition of the shortcomings) and someone jumped in and said 'why can't you just recognise that you can do girl things' and I was appalled because that's not what body dysphoria is about. That kind of comment is appropriate when someone says 'x must be trans because x is a boy who likes dolls', but not in other contexts where gender roles have not been mentioned, but feeling in the wrong body has.

I know what you mean about reddit, but I'm also willing to bet it's like people complaining how awful FWR posters are. We get trolled SO MUCH that on occasion when a genuine poster comes and asks something that's a favourite troll topic they do get dog piled
I bet Gender Critical is trolled massively by people trying to seem reasonable so they can gather evidence of Mean TERFs/hate sub

I tend not to read the comments on the gender critical subs, partly because there isn't much debate and can be unnecessarily cruel. But, it's about the only place on reddit where you can be critical of trans theory, so maybe people do push it a bit.

Often, when you look into the history of the users, if they are gender critical, they aren't coming to it from a feminist perspective. And I agree with Quentin, its trolled quite badly, maybe so gender cynical have some content.

BigDeskBob

I agree. I'm critical of the ideology based on it's misogyny, lack of logic and bullying tactics.

But when I see people invoking God, or 'laws against nature', or just generally having a huge abuse fest, they lose all credibility.

Because in the next breath, they will be slagging off women and people with disabilities. They are just very angry for no discernible reason.

Sometimes it's not nice to see the dark underbelly of human nature.

Yes I think the difference is that those who invoke God as a reason to be against trans ideology do so for different reasons to generally left-leaning feminist women who were originally sympathetic to and supportive of transgender people until realising the impact it has on women, children sports etc etc.

dorade

Yes. There is a lot of discussion about whether to align with religion because the ultimate goal is the same.

The line being that no-one is listening, so this is what analytical, left leaning atheists have to do.

I'm not convinced. I don't need religious zealotry to demolish the ideology.

I'm not convinced. I don't need religious zealotry to demolish the ideology.

Are you referring to the "Hands across the Aisle" project?

I feel that this one is justified in that working together with the conservatives is the only way to keep women safe in prisons, and able to participate in public life with regard to changing rooms, toilets, etc.

I feel we have to prioritize actual women's actual safety in real life over any ideological debate.

However, when it comes to debunking the trans ideology, I fully agree that we not only not need religious zealotry, it is actually harmful, as religious extremists are the people who invented gender, and actually ally with the genderists in some countries. (The fact that Iran forces homosexuals to have gender surgeries doesn't seem to alert leftist trans allies to the nature of the trans ideology, but feminists of course see how it is connected.)

VestalVirgin

I wasn't, specifically, although it was in the back of my mind.

It's more about general comments where people invoke God as a reason.

It probably depends on how fundamental the group is. Some of what they say just undermines their credibility.

They will be written off immediately. And I don't want that to happen to feminists by association.

It's more about general comments where people invoke God as a reason.

I totally agree; it is insane to quote one invisible unprovable thing (god) to debunk another claim about invisible unprovable things (gender identity). That makes it into an argument about different opinions.

What we need is facts. Biology.

Things like that Reddit sub are why I try to sit on my hands a lot of the time on trans issues, because I honestly think a lot of the time it becomes like those Daily Mail articles which monster the poor on the basis of a single benefit cheat, or stir up Islamophobia on the basis of a few extremists.

But then along comes an article like this and I hit peak trans all over again.

I used to play women's football, and also played a lot of mixed football. Football is a contact sport - you hustle other people off the ball, you go in for sliding tackles, you sometimes clash in the air going up for headers. Size and strength matters. That's why mixed football works as a 5-a-side sport (non contact, much less physical, all about accuracy of passing and positional play) and is great fun as a game of park-kick-around when everyone's just in it for a bit of a laugh and no-one is pushing it their hardest. But 11 a side doesn't work among adults as a mixed sport.

Now take a look at Simona (who describes herself rather confusingly as a "centre half forward" - but either she's a centre forward Emile Heskey type player, or a centre half Rio Ferdinand type player - either way Simona will be coming up against a woman playing the opposite position). Could a woman go up for a header in the box against Simona? Would a woman stand a chance in a shoulder-to-shoulder situation against Simona. I can tell you right now the answer is no.

It's totally different from coming up against a physically stronger woman. When I watched England v Scotland the other night one thing that really struck me was how much more physical the England women players were - they were stronger in pretty much any one-on-one situation. But that's still a fair contest, I don't suppose for a moment any of the Scotland players were on that pitch thinking "I could come off here with a career-ending injury". But (and I have played university football, the level Simona plays at) if I found myself facing Simona (and I have faced female centre halves built like brick shit houses without flinching) I would constantly have at the back of my mind the thought that Simona could cripple me.

You cannot have transwomen in competitive women's football and have a fair game.

In contrast, this transwoman, Jaiyah Saelua is doing the right thing and still playing men's football. That's a genuinely admirable stance. (I wonder whether it makes a difference that she comes from a culture which genuinely has a concept of third gender, rather than a culture which is appropriating that concept and mis-using it).

So much here. One reason (amongst many) why I don't integrate with radical feminist groups is that those I have come in contact with have made links with religious groups, especially around porn and prostitution. I'm increasingly concerned about how some arguments are being framed and why issues involving sex tend to get centre stage over those involving reproduction, for example, access to birth control and abortion. Also, inequalities in marriage tend to be overlooked.

The posters (commenters) on the reddit that I drew attention to were not religious, though. They were posting from a GC or RF position. I'm not sure if they were trolls or not, I didn't bother looking to see anything about the history of their comments.

MBH - I get where you are coming from. I think the reddit is about personal experiences that lead to peak trans, though, so it is bound to emphasise the personal and anecdotal rather than the bigger picture.

I've dipped my toe into some closed online radical feminist / gender critical groups and removed myself pretty quickly when the "chicks with dicks" (and worse) comments get thrown around. That's not something I want to be associated with. It's perfectly possible to debate trans ideology without descending into that sort of vile commentary.

OlennasWimple

I agree with you that it is indeed possible, and I wish the discourse did not degenerate.

The way I see it happening, though, is a lot of these women have been exposed to the extreme end of transactivist abuse. I've seen it unfolding before my very eyes. Grim and ugly.

Some of the women have had personal relationships with trans people that have been characterised by gaslighting and abuse.

They are angry and scared. They deal with it using contempt.

You can get mired in a very unpleasant environment. No-one change sides. They just get more entrenched.

I was reading the comments to a video about a transwoman. Several of the posters were transwomen.

They were telling the video uploader to think twice before entering a women's bathroom because it's wrong to make women feel uncomfortable.

Saying they need to make a big effort to fit in. That it is the transwomen who are imposing, not the other way round. That the belligerent insistence on their rights and that they are actually biological women gives trans people a bad name. And makes it harder.

Amongst the myriad of strands surrounding this ideology and the objections to it, two of them stand out online. Abusive transactivists and trans people that just want to get on with their lives. And object to the trans-mactivist narrative, as much as anyone.

Therefore, the reactions differ, depending on to whom you are reacting.

I find it jarring sometimes when women get ugly, other times I feel like getting ugly myself, if I'm brutally honest.

One of the reasons I don't, is that I think it undermines my credibility. I want to persuade people about the negative side of the ideology using logic, not berate people for having gender dysphoria. Plus I'm not naturally nasty!

Some women go too far. Criticising without merit. Without logic. Without an argument. I thoroughly disagree with that.

But the 'chicks with dicks' comment that you noted is quite mild compared to some things I have seen. I've even seen transwomen use that expression about themselves.

In conclusion, I am uncomfortable with criticism for the sake of criticism, but I understand why it happens.

hedgehog, I realise this is beside the point but centre half forward is a position is Australian Rules Football, which is very different to soccer. That's what she's referring to.

It's a contact sport, if you didn't know.

Ah - that was me being a bit slow on the uptake - of course, Aussie rules football. Which is closer to rugby. Which makes it even worse!

I know, I would seriously not want to play footy against someone who had (or had previously had) a male body. Jeez.