Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Break the silence around rape and violence against women" but don't mention grooming gang rape and violence against girls

88 replies

ReleaseTheBats · 11/07/2017 13:56

The Guardian is at it again.

"Why we need to break the silence around rape and violence against women"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/11/break-silence-rape-violence-women-bosnia-srebrenica#comment-101890889

There is a lot in the article that I don't agree with. For example:

As in Bosnia, the root of these crimes is the dehumanisation of others – the belief that the perpetrator is superior by reason of sex, race or nationality, and has the right to control, humiliate or hurt their victims

It seems odd to leave religion of the list of reasons for perpetrators to believe they are superior and to dehumanise others, particularly in the Bosnian context.

But my issue is with the Guardian moderation of comments. Apparently, under an article about how we need to break the silence about rape and violence against women, posting a comment about breaking the silence in certain sections of the media about recent grooming gang cases (eg Oxford and Huddersfield) will get you deleted.

Could the Guardian get any more hypocritical?

OP posts:
ReleaseTheBats · 12/07/2017 17:07

firstly, refuse to report at all, because it might stir up racism;

I don't disagree at all that this is the thinking (Guardian etc) but it is a really strange way to think. And deeply condescending and patronising. I'm sure Guardian journalists and editors manage to read about grooming gangs, Cologne etc without turning into rabid racists. Why can't they accept that the same is true of their readers, and even, heaven forbid, other people? It is totally counterproductive. Trying to hide problems, which them let's them get worse, is probably the worst thing you can do to defeat racism and promote community cohesion.

And that's without getting into the moral issue of deciding that it is worth sacrificing the wellbeing of children because protecting them will raise some difficult issues (not insurmountable, just difficult). I do think the Guardian is carrying on with the thinking that lead to Rochdale and Rotherham - denial, lack of openness, avoidance of difficult questions, and as it is still (goodness know why?) an influential paper, is morally bankrupt to do so.

OP posts:
user1498662042 · 12/07/2017 17:08

It seems odd to leave religion of the list of reasons for perpetrators to believe they are superior and to dehumanise others, particularly in the Bosnian context.

That's almost irrelevant. Anyone can think up a reason to believe they are superior to and more human than others. It can be a religious ideology or a secular one. It does not matter. The ideology is secondary. If the ideology were to vanish tomorrow, another would be devised. Power comes first, ideology second. This why the ideologies of revolutionary movements become repressive when power is won. They were not oppressive to begin with, but once power is secured they become so because they are required to justify that power. Hence one power system is only ever replaced with another.

OlennasWimple · 12/07/2017 17:14

user - never mind the "potential" for violence against women and girls, it's already here, and already happening

user1498662042 · 12/07/2017 17:23

Violence is always happening.

What do you do about that? Genuine question.

OddBoots · 12/07/2017 17:31

Are comments about past cases being deleted too? If it is the comments about ongoing court cases then that is likely to be avoiding being in contempt of court for sub judice.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 12/07/2017 17:53

pickle, yes they definitely happened.

But, prompted by your post, I checked to see what Snopes had to say. And it's interesting. Whereas normally Snopes just says something along the lines of factually accurate, may be true, unsubstantiated, definitely fabricated... here it offers no overall assessment. Instead it offers us a version of what I now think of as the Jess Philips lack of analysis ("worse things happen in Birmingham New Street on a Saturday night") namely "we all know male sexual violence and street harrassment is endemic, there's no reason to think there was a cultural explanation for these events or any sense that they weren't business as usual." In other words, the refusal to discuss and analyse that the Guardian and BBC were guilty of.

Incidentally the "worse happens in New Street" minimisation is one which spectacularly fails MrsTP's tests: often said by lefty dude-bros who didn't give a shit about that until they wanted a reason to ignore the Cologne attacks. (on this charge, I except JP herself who has a long and honourable track record of fighting male violence - I think this was a lone, if very bad, mistake on her part).

FWIW I think there is space for a detailed cultural analysis. There's a whole load of questions I'd like to see raised.

Were the Cologne attacks an example of Taharrush Gamea, i.e. not merely opportunistic sexual assaults but part of a world view which sees sexual assault as a way of policing women's behaviour and limiting their access to the public sphere? (There were some good analyses of this by Egyptian feminists and political writers of both sexes in connection with the use of sexual assault during the Tahir Square).

How, if at all, does Taharrush Gamea differ from institutionalised sexual violence in western culture, such as gang rapes in frat houses on American campuses?

What does it tell us about wider German culture? Is the square outside Cologne station becoming a no-go area for women in any way different from the fact that there are signs on lamp-posts outside the red-light district in Hamburg telling women not to enter unless they are sex-workers? What should be a public space, denied to women because of the threat of male sexual violence. Why, at the time of the attacks, were most of them not actually crimes under the German criminal code because at that point (only rectified last summer) rape and sexual assault were only criminal offences if you could demonstrate that you'd fought back - failure to fight back physically was deemed to be consent (even the word "no" was not enough)?

Without a decent analysis of these questions the left renders itself powerless in the face of racists like the one I encountered online last week who said "immigration is turning Sweden into the rape capital of Europe" (of course, it's not, it is mostly an artefact of the fact that the Swedes catalogue the stats round sexual violence much more rigorously than anyone else - but in the face of reports that they also do not record the ethnicity of the perpetrators for fear of stoking racism, it becomes hard to come up with really sound knock-down arguments).

ReleaseTheBats · 12/07/2017 18:38

Are comments about past cases being deleted too? If it is the comments about ongoing court cases then that is likely to be avoiding being in contempt of court for sub judice

My post which was deleted was mentioning a current trial (no details, just that it was a grooming gang trial in Oxford) with a link to a BBC article on it. I presume the BBC are aware of what is okay to report on current trials.

OP posts:
ReleaseTheBats · 12/07/2017 18:49

It seems odd to leave religion of the list of reasons for perpetrators to believe they are superior and to dehumanise others, particularly in the Bosnian context.

That's almost irrelevant. Anyone can think up a reason to believe they are superior to and more human than others. It can be a religious ideology or a secular one. It does not matter. The ideology is secondary. If the ideology were to vanish tomorrow, another would be devised. Power comes first, ideology second. This why the ideologies of revolutionary movements become repressive when power is won. They were not oppressive to begin with, but once power is secured they become so because they are required to justify that power. Hence one power system is only ever replaced with another

I don't agree. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that religion never influences behaviour. This is untrue. Can you explain the difference in views on homosexuality (which I think we can assume translate into different behaviours towards gay people) between Muslims in the UK and the general population? I believe the difference in the percentage of these two groups who think homosexuality is acceptable are stark.

And in the Bosnian context, religion (with ethnic group) was how the various factions defined who was in their group, and who was outside it, and therefore who to kill etc. It doesn't have to mean that the religious ideology promotes the dehumanisation, but religion can be a factor in defining who is your group and who is not.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 12/07/2017 18:55

I'm sure Guardian journalists and editors manage to read about grooming gangs, Cologne etc without turning into rabid racists. Why can't they accept that the same is true of their readers, and even, heaven forbid, other people?

Either they look down on their readers ... or, and I think that not unlikely, they are not actually able to read about grooming gangs without becoming racists themselves.

After all, the only way to react to hearing about such a thing would be to:

a) acknowledge that male violence is a problem and is enabled by misogyny that permeates society

or

b) blame the evil foreigners.

Well, one of those options is much more comfortable for white men and their supporters than the other.

But they do not want to do b), as they realize that would make them look bad to their readers.

So instead of choosing a), which they can simply not cope with, they just ignore the whole thing altogether, in the hope that it will go away if they pretend it doesn't exist.

VestalVirgin · 12/07/2017 19:04

Can you explain the difference in views on homosexuality (which I think we can assume translate into different behaviours towards gay people) between Muslims in the UK and the general population? I believe the difference in the percentage of these two groups who think homosexuality is acceptable are stark

Yes, but that's not because Christianity is a superior religion, but because Muslims in the UK are immigrants from places with different cultures.

There are few people to whom religion is the reason to hold a certain view, for most, religion is just the excuse to do exactly what they want.
I mean, Islam does not tell its followers to molest women they are not married to. And how many of the Muslims who behave in horrible ways actually obey the rules when it comes to not drinking alcohol?

I am happy to criticise religions any day, but while Islam is a symptom of patriarchal society, I do not think it is the cause.
If Christianity was allowed and practised in the places those men come from, the Christians would quite probably be just as misogynist as the Muslims.

Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, too. If religion were the sole reason then there'd be no difference in attitudes.

picklemepopcorn · 12/07/2017 19:06

Thank you. I'm saddened.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 12/07/2017 19:09

Yes Vestal. In fact I'd go so far as to say the Abrahamic religions take the form they do because they evolved in order to prop up patriarchy.

You only have to look at the attitude of fundy Christians in America towards women, the gay community and (often in the case of some of the white southern churches) other races.

In fact one of the things I like about living in the UK is that it is no longer a Christian country, it is largely a secular country (whereas the majority of Americans say that they do believe in god).

MrsTerryPratchett · 12/07/2017 19:31

No one gives a shit about eating seafood, wearing mixed fibres or the other silly dictates of religions. But they are all over the bits that oppress women (and gay people). That goes for almost all organized religion.

scallopsrgreat · 12/07/2017 19:43

The problem I have with pointing out the race in grooming gangs, is whilst it might be true, there is far more systematic rape and sexual abuse that goes on by white men thT is not scrutinised in the same way. The dots are not joined, or it takes a lot longer. Think about the child abuse and sexual abuse cases in children's homes during the last 50 - 70 years. Predominantly white males. No joining of the dots about how white males have a problem not abusing children whilst being left in charge of them.

It is easier, more identifiable and more people buy in to the thinking around brown men raping white girls.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 12/07/2017 20:17

Perhaps they do, but that does not mean the cultural aspects of the behaviour of the grooming gangs should not be examined or discussed. No one is saying that Asian males in general have a problem with sexual abuse - and your statement to similar effect about white men is just as ridiculous as such a statement would be, by the way. But there is without a doubt a cultural element to the behaviour, which also produces abuse of women within the Asian community. Why should this be ignored?

OlennasWimple · 12/07/2017 20:58

M0stly - I found what you said upthread about Sweden really interesting:

it is mostly an artefact of the fact that the Swedes catalogue the stats round sexual violence much more rigorously than anyone else - but in the face of reports that they also do not record the ethnicity of the perpetrators for fear of stoking racism, it becomes hard to come up with really sound knock-down arguments

Although it's coming from a well-intentioned position, the effect of being colour-blind is that although they are keeping more detailed stats than many other places, these aren't helpful to policy makers in thinking about appropriate responses. The danger is that instead they are driven by anecdote (including individual high profile cases), or that they follow the UK media lead and ignore the issue altogether.

I can't remember whether this case has been discussed on FWR before, but [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html it is a great example of a particular cultural and religious background causing real harm to women in the UK here and now (warning: it's a DM link). It's not racist or Islamophobic to say that it's unacceptable that a man can reach adulthood having always lived in the UK and a) not know about the age of consent; and b) view women as worth "no more than a discarded lollipop" because of what he has been taught by the adults, religious and educational establishments he has attended

OlennasWimple · 12/07/2017 21:07

Gah! Clicky link

when will we get an edit button

QuentinSummers · 12/07/2017 21:10

Great post scallops

EmbraceTheBitchYouAre · 12/07/2017 21:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 12/07/2017 21:22

What an articulate and thoughtful contribution.
Broadmoor is that way mate >>>

user1496321962 · 12/07/2017 21:24

True!

KnobOfStork · 12/07/2017 21:26

The Guardian is definitely trying to suit an American audience lately.

Wrt to grooming gangs. I am a survivor of child sexual exploitation, I now work with other survivors. A very large portion of CSE is not gang or group related, and a large portion of groups are not Muslim. I work with women groomed by gangs of every ethnicity, the majority of them have their crime in common, not skin colour, culture or religion. Children with disabilities are more vulnerable and fly under the radar, LGBT or questioning children become easy targets, children exploited by their own peers or by family members. But it doesn't fit the narrative. I was not groomed by an Asian gang, nor were my abusers grooming me because their religion or race made them think they were superior. I was groomed because they could get away with it, because it was easy to blame me for my own actions.

JigglyTuff · 12/07/2017 21:29

Absolutely scallops - thank you for articulating that

KnobOfStork · 12/07/2017 21:34

The telegraph never wrote an article about how we were sacrificed to the altar of white male violence, we were disposable and, barely teenagers, asking for it/knew what we were doing/cried rape later because we were ashamed of ourbown behaviour/seducing adult men who sought us out. They were innocent, men can't help fucking children if it's there on a plate.

OlennasWimple · 12/07/2017 21:37

Flowers Knob