Laci Green hosting gender debate

[DoopityDo]

Seems like Laci Green has "seen some shit" regarding the wackier side of Tumblr feminism (including the kind that threatens you IN PERSON for using a slur 6 years ago without knowing it).

And she's hosting a debate between Blaire White, Contrapoints and Megan Kelly.

Having seen a debate between Blaire White and Contrapoints before, if Meghan comes armed with facts and statistics and the ability not to roll her eyes at bizarre and unscientific statements, she will
a) find some common ground with both of them and
b) wipe the floor with them in all other areas.

Blaire White believes there are two genders and that you need to physically transition (with hormones and later surgery, I don't think she's had any surgery yet) to identify as the other one. She uses women's restrooms because she passes, but not women's changing rooms or other spaces because she still has a penis.

She also thinks that transwomen aren't women, and opposes child transition. BUT she doesn't seem to know what that involves.

Contrapoints is genderqueer and fully aware that he is male, but still argues that sex is complicated and what makes a woman or a female or whatever. And that trans women are women because why wouldn't they be?

Also does not know anything about the reality of child and adolscent transition.

Blaire White is also a former MRA-identifier (particularly focused on false reporting and violence against men I think) so I claim my free cupcake if 'men are oppressed too' comes up.

This could be...interesting.

(Here's the tweet about the debate)

She also thinks that transwomen aren't women, and opposes child transition. BUT she doesn't seem to know what that involves

I'm not sure what you mean by saying she doesn't seem to know that involves. She has talked a lot about it and has described it as child abuse. She has criticised the use of puberty blockers and has got the expected flak for that.

I hope Megan will ask Laci why she is dating someone she believes is a white supremacist.

1:55 ''Chris is the white supremacist, not me! Just a low key ? for you there.''

And why she keeps using the word 'gender' when she means 'sex'.

Sorry Lass I should have been more precise.

Blaire is opposed to minors transitioning before 18 (which I agree with) but she doesn't know that you don't start Hormone blockers at 6, which was one of the things talked about in the previous debate with Contrapoints.

Hopefully since then Blaire is now aware that puberty blockers aren't started till you hit puberty, but also that they are used for chemical castration. She previously mentioned them having no long term studies though, so knows that at least.

DJ I assume that's a joke, since he's Puerto Rican? I think people have been accusing him of being a white supremacist though. And a Nazi.

Yeah. Her twitter right now seems to draw a distinction between sex and gender. She's been arguing with someone that you can have a prostate and be a woman, but you can't have a prostate and be FEMALE. And she is getting lots of pushback because apparently biological reality is exclusionary now.

She's being called a TERF (of course) in spite of being pretty libfem, but I will be interested to see how she reacts to Meghan's argument about "woman" being a material reality not a feeling, as she's currently still on the "a woman is anyone who says they are a anyone who says they are a anyone who says they are..." train.

Your phone (I assume) has decided to change Meghan Murphy to Megan Kelly.

I watched Meghan Murphy giving evidence on the Canadian C16 bill. Tbh I thought she was terrible and put forward a very poor argument. Theryn Meyer, also opposing it, put a much stronger, although ultimately unsuccessful, case.

Damn you autocorrect. Yes, that's who I meant. I swear I am a reasonably cogent person occasionally.

I hope Meghan has a better showing this time than she did for the C16 bill then, Lass!

Particularly because people whose opinions I used to respect have been demanding that Meghan Murphy be excluded from an online debate on gender and identity because of her views on...gender and identity.

So I would rather like it if she showed up and ran intellectual rings around her opponents without breaking a sweat.

Particularly because people whose opinions I used to respect have been demanding that Meghan Murphy be excluded from an online debate on gender and identity because of her views on...gender and identity.

Well, from what I have seen of Blaire White no matter how much she disagrees with anyone I don't think she would ever try to seek to shut anyone up. I can't imagine her ever pulling that stunt that Juno Dawson did of being too terrified to appear on a panel with Germaine Greer (I expect she and Greer would probably have common ground on a number of issues)

This is the debate. I haven't watched it yet but the comments on Laci Green's twitter feed are interesting

twitter.com/gogreen18

Oh those Twitter comments. I especially love the ones that say that Laci should die because she's killing trans people by acknowledging the reality of sexual dimorphism. I mean that's not at all an overreaction.

Also someone tried to argue to her that pregnancy and maternity are not women's issues because trans men exist. It's like playing what the hell bingo.

Gosh Laci is annoying - I'm only 2 mins into the live stream and her voice is annoying me

Blaire pulled out of the debate, by the way...

I have been listening to her recent interview with Dave Rubin and think she is coming across very well. She does giggle too much though

Laci is a libfem. Traditionally a trans-ally. She is starting to see the light. Because the logic is irrefutable.

As soon as she even questioned the ideology she got a backlash, which increased her desire to talk.

She has a large following.

She is merely in the position of many libfems who see the light.

Does she lose her following and remain true to herself? Or does she deny what she can see to maintain her profile?

I know Datun but it's been fascinating to watch. I think she is sticking to her guns though

Gosh Laci is annoying - I'm only 2 mins into the live stream and her voice is annoying me

Oh I gave up and fast forwarded it to about 20 minutes in where Meghan Murphy was taking forever to get to any point. The whole thing is almost 3 and a half hours long.

Yes, the video is not great. Have just dipped in here and there too. I will return to it. Perhaps. Listen to the Rubin report podcast. He is more sympathetic to her 'new' views of course

I've said it before. The only issue is whether transwomen are women. They are not. They insist they are. That's the only issue.

Laci sooo doesn't want to say so. Precisely because that is the issue. You are either in, or out.

She absolutely knows they are not. And she is trying her level best to navigate the linguistic gymnastics necessary to both agree that they are women, whilst knowing that they're not.

She obviously has good relationships with transwomen and wants very much to find a compromise.

It's not possible.

And that is three hours of absolute waffle trying desperately to find a solution that says black is black but it's also white.

The only issue is whether transwomen are women. They are not

I think Blair White's position is that trans women are trans women, not women.

LassWiTheDelicateAir

Yes, it's a shame she cancelled at the last minute.

But again, transwomen don't want to be called transwomen. It's woman or nothing.

The batshittery becomes more obvious on Twitter, because Laci is happy to say transwomen are women (without really thinking about the definition of woman and its importance but...well, I've been there) but she's still getting shit because she won't say that transwomen are FEMALE.

Which was the point that eventually tipped me into full-on TERFery, because then I started to think "but they aren't, and conflating transwomen and natal females does a disservice to all of us...and thinking about it, why are they women then? If female is being redefined into meaninglessness then so is woman."

I have Mumsnet to thank for this

I saw that the video was three hours, will try to watch later. Her interview on the Rubin Report is better. Several people ask very pointed questions in the second hour about the sex binary and the ineffectiveness of medical transition. Which she at least says she doesn't know about and will look into.

Any good bits of the debate I should look out for?

But woman means female!

It's not a role, it's a biological marker.

I suspect it's because trans wanted to be viewed as female, and used used the word woman. And now wavering trans allies are forced to try and make a distinction between women and female. To please everyone.

But there isn't one.

As they are finding out by the TRA backlash, who know full well they are technically the same (just a different age).

It doesn't matter what natal born females call themselves, transwomen will want it. It's not the words they're after it's the state of being.

I'm now seeing transwomen claiming they are cis. Ffs.

Her baby talk is making my fucking skin crawl.

Blair White's position is set out in the italics on this website.

cursede.blog/2017/04/20/response-contrapoints-x-blaire-white-otp/

The person writing the article is I think one of the persons who was involved in this debate , is also trans but thinks White is doing trans wrong. Apart from White's first comment about brains I don't think there is much FWR would disagree with.

The bits by White sound sensible. The writer is wrong on so many levels, I can't be bothered to address them.

I also can't be bothered to read the full article. It's disjointed and purile, ignores feminism, ignores the reasons why women are disadvantaged and ignores the revolting abuse directed at women by transwomen.

I think Laci has reached #peaktrans

twitter.com/gogreen18

"bullying lesbians, censoring papers, politicizing research, celebrating murderers. this movement is unrecognizable to me right now. "

AssignedMentalAtBirth

She will have come in for some tremendous abuse if she so much as even questions the abuse of others.

Transactivists are peaking themselves all over the place. No one in their right mind can think telling other people that their sexual orientation is wrong is going to go down well.

This ideology is all about sex. It's so obvious.