Article about feminism and porn.

[DeleteOrDecay]

Thought this might be of interest here. I think the article makes some good points.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/17353836?utmhpp_ref=uk&

Good article - and I am still reeling from the (good) shock of discovering a decent feminist article in the HuffPo.

Good article. OH and I were only talking this morning about our very real fears about our daughters growing up in a world where mainstream porn is abusive at best. This is made worse by it being so easily accessible that our children and their peers are likely to come across it several years before they are actually engaging in sexual activity, making this their 'normal'. And it terrifies me beyond belief that my girls will find themselves growing up in a world where both girls and boys will see pornographic sex as normal sex. Only recently was I reading g an article on the increasing numbers of girls under the age of 15 receiving labiaplasty on the NHS due mainly to the influence of the porn industry.

I thought the same hedgehog regarding the huff post. Unfortunately the comments that followed on fb were mostly people justifying their porn use and talking about how the 'stars' choose to go into this industry.

There's still a long way to go before people willingly see pornography for what it really is unfortunately.

Yes that is a concern of mine too spanneroo. I have two dd's and we are a long way away from that stage of their lives but all I can think about is if it's this bad now, what's it going to be like 10/12 years down the line when my dd's could potentially be exposed to it?

I don't know if it will ever be banned but at the very least It shouldn't be as easily accessible as it currently is.

Yes, my DDs are 3 and 10 months so a long way off yet, but I dread to think what it'll be like by then. There's only so much you can do to prepare them for that kind of enormous pressure.

I feel like nobody is taking it as seriously as it needs to be taken. It is the right of women to be treated fairly and to be respected. It is the right of our children to not be exposed to sexual content like porn until they are old enough to understand it. It is not the right of anyone to be able to access porn. I don't understand what's so hard to get about that.

Excellent article.

Being worried is understandable. it's horrendous how commonplace viewing of and acceptance of pornography is - with as that article says so much of it depicting violence towards and degrading treatment of women, leading to this being seen as "standard" or "normal" sex. This is hugely damaging for everyone but especially girls who are often subjected to similar treatment with boys acting out what they've seen in pornography and believing they should enjoy it. The general culture of sex being something men and boys do "to" women and girls and their being treated in this way is a natural part of it is abhorrent.

Interesting article, but it only refers to pornography created by men. Any thoughts on porn created by women for women? Is that any more ethically acceptable? I'm not so sure...

I couldn't agree more. It's infuriating that pornography is seen by anyone, let alone feminists, as empowering to women.

And it's frustrating that people can, and do, confuse sexual liberation with sexual exploitation. It's perfectly plain to me what the difference is.

This article from Teen Vogue doing the rounds. It is giving instructions to girls as young as 13 on how to do anal sex. Disguising itself as something of an infomercial.

Written by a fucking 'feminist'. Piling more pressure on teenage girls to act out teen boys' fantasies learnt from porn.

It doesn't even mention the clitoris. So women's sexual pleasure is something that can be safely ignored. And 'non prostate owners'. Don't get me started. Ffs.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/teen-vogue-anal-sex-prostate-owner-sheila-michaels-feminism-teenagers-a7831671.html

at that teen vogue article. My jaw literally hit the floor.

I feel so depressed for my daughters. I don't want them to grow up being objectified and treated like meat but it looks like society doesn't agree with me.

That piece in Teen Vogue is horrendous. That it was written is bad enough but that it got through their editorial team and was published in a magazine as the article says which is aimed at young girls is enraging.

Not only do we have pornography aimed at men and boys which depicts the degradation of women for male gratification, women and girls existing only for this purpose, presented as normal sex but also now a magazine such as Teen Vogue runs an article like that. The messages are insidious enough without them normalising this with their audience, disregarding entirely sexual satisfaction of girls and women and defining us in the "non-men" sense. The demographic it'll be read by and that it's written by a supposed feminist is more abhorrent still. Seems they agree girls and women exist for the sexual gratification of men and boys to carry out whatever fantasy they wish and sex is something for them to do to girls and women.

DeleteOrDecay

It's been posted all over the place. Some of the comments just leave me in despair.

If a woman wants to do anal sex, that's fine, I have no argument.

But I think the vast majority of women don't. And I don't want it normalised.

No apology.

I certainly don't want it encouraged in under age girls.

Totally agree with you Datun.

It's already bad enough that many boys expect it and try to pressure girls into doing it (or just try to do it during sex) without it being promoted to girls in such a magazine. Combined with the pressure girls already face this normalises it further and could make many feel they should be enjoying it and it's something boys are perfectly entitled to try, especially when reading this nonsense at such a young age.

The comments I've read - where women are objecting to the prostate owner, non prostate owner identities (although how you can be the owner of something you don't have, God only knows) being met with replies such as:

'Perhaps it's directed towards gay teenagers' - fuck off is it.

'Women have a prostate' - no they don't. The skene gland, which is sometimes called the female prostate, is in the vagina, anyway.

'It's just a normal part of sex' - I disagree. Because, although I think some women enjoy it, I object to the implication that as it is 'normal', everyone should be fine with it.

And I know they say in the article that not everyone does enjoy it, but the fact that it is in a teen magazine aimed at 13-year-olds make that the most disingenuous statement I think I've ever heard.

This woman calls herself a feminist and a dick whisper in the same sentence.

nolove. I'm glad you object too, although I knew you would! But sometimes I do wonder if it's my age. So taking a youth temperature check is always good.

This is a great article from a liberal feminist about her evolution from lib to rad. And yes it is an evolution.

The woman writing this article would do well to read it.

liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/leaving-liberal-feminism/#comments

Interested to know what people think of this argument. I think she's full of shit.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/22/porn-women

It definitely isn't your age Datun! I am enraged by this article and the magazine it's been published in and despair at the message it sends to its readership who are already under so much pressure and existing in a society in which they're sexualised and bombarded with messages they exist sexually for the gratification of boys and men. It's all the more horrifying a magazine which should be boosting the confidence of girls and empowering them generally, not least with sexual relationships is actually prioritising the promotion of a kind of sex many are deeply uncomfortable with over their own desires (not even mentioning the clitoris etc).

I'm also very worried by the use of "non prostate owners" and the increasing usage of this and similar terminology which erases women and girls, defining us against men (and in the negative at that). Suggests again men are default and we are "other", reinforcing the idea their concerns and desires matter and ours are lesser - we should be concerned with providing gratification to them (going back to that ghastly article).

Thanks also for the article which I'm going to read!

I keep thinking of that BMJ article that came out a few years back. They surveyed young people between about 16 and 24.

IIRC (and this is from memory, but the figures are ball-park right), about 25% of women who'd tried anal liked it. The rest were split between those who were just a bit "meh, does nothing for me" and those who found it painful and actively disliked it.

Then they looked at the attitudes in young men. They expected anal (as "fifth base"), and also (this was the terrifying bit) knew that the chances were the women wouldn't like it/would even find it painful, but still expected to go ahead with it.

So no, not a normal part of sex. A minority of women like it. Most are either indifferent to it (and who the hell wants to have sex they feel indifferent about - that's kind of missing the fucking point of fucking in my books) or found it painful.

What this is is a concerted PR campaign driven by porn to try to normalise an activity which (statistically speaking) isn't normal. And where it's coerced or forced is also morally wrong.

To me it's the difference between toleration and enthusiasm.

Hedgehog I concur. It's definitely considered something of an achievement by some men and boys and it seems to me part of the reason for this is pressuring girls/women into it and that many (probably most) girls and women don't like it and experience discomfort. That's quite disturbing I think but also reflects the attitudes much of pornography promotes - degrading women, causing women pain, violence towards women - as does the language used in pornography which is now everyday language in how many boys and men speak of women and girls.

I've got no issue with anyone who enjoys any kind of sex consensually with an enthusiastic partner who loves the same thing but this promotion and normalisation of something many women and girls find uncomfortable but are feeling increasingly pressured to do even though they're likely to and often dislike it is very disturbing. Sex is supposed to be something hugely stimulating and satisfying for both parties yet this is encouraging women and in the case of this article girls to quite possibly put themselves through discomfort and pain to appease boys.

That was a fantastic article as well Datun. I can identify with much of it and am very much hoping some I know will have a similar evolutionary experience...

What pornography does is turn people's - and principally women's - bodies into marketable commodities.

It's the worst legacy of the sexual revolution.

Indeed user, as well as with it being so commonplace and viewed by so many from such a young age cement the idea women and girls exist as sexual objects for the gratification of boys and men first and foremost in so many.

My dds are 11 and 14 and when they were little girls, I stupidly imagined sex education would have caught up and by the time they were at secondary school it would be common practice to be teaching the harms of pornography.

I wrote recently to DD's school for information on what they teach in. SRE and got a fobbed off answer which indicated they'd not given it much thought. Still teaching it like it's 1985. I plan to follow up in September to see if they've now given it more thought. Perhaps I'll attach the teen vogue and independent article.

That Guardian article is abysmal.

I remember the last time (or one of the times) we had a thread on "feminist porn" on here. I went and did a bit of digging on what constitutes "feminist" porn.

Turns out it is utterly indistinguishable from "mainstream" porn - it includes such feminist acts as women being strangled during sex and masturbated on. Much hooha is made over the individual consent of the actors, but no thought at all is put into the context that the consent might be given in - how can you freely consent to something if you know that if you don't consent, you won't work again?

The benchmark for "feminist porn" is that it is made by women. A woman has done it, therefore it is feminist. This is the worst of feminism-lite, lib-fem nonsense. This is the context that held James Deen up as the poster boy of lovely, woman friendly porn, until it turned out that he was sexually assaulting and raping his co-workers. What price consent there?

This sentence from the article makes me spit "For women to admit to experiencing pleasure in watching pornography means overcoming stereotypes about female sexuality" - this is the old trope that women who don't want to watch porn are prudes. FUCK OFF WITH THAT!!

This was the previous thread. Usual appearances by men defending porn use

Pooch, just to stir up some debate - what if a woman did create pornography for women that didn't involve all those violent acts? Or rather, suppose she said to women 'Get in touch with me with all the scenes you as women would like to see in pornography and I will represent them'? Or even better, suppose she allowed women to submit their own homemade pornography? This already happens. There's a tech entrepreneur called Cindy Gallop who has created a supposedly female friendly, feminist site called 'Make Love Not Porn' to which women can submit their own homemade porn clips that deviate from patriarchal scripts. Usually, they don't involve men at all but feature the woman masturbating or with other women. (Erm, I do admit to knowing this as a result of having a quick peek, just for research purposes of courses!)

www.theguardian.com/careers/2017/feb/27/sex-tech-pioneer-cindy-gallop-a-man-is-not-a-financial-strategy

But joking aside, is something like this different? Is porn inherently bad or just patriarchal porn? If a woman were allowing other women to represent their fantasies pornographically would that be acceptable, or would it just be another conversion of human sexuality into click-bait capital with a powerful, rich woman doing the exploiting?

I'm not arguing either way, just interested in what other people think.