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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Sex offender are the new queers"

48 replies

QuentinSummers · 30/06/2017 14:45

This stupid article in the Huffpo. I'm absolutely raging. I suppose at least it's an illustration of what queer theory actually means.
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3386970

^"There is a widespread assumption that all sex offenders are child molesters, pedophiles, and violent rapists. This is not true. A large spectrum of acts are considered sex offenses. These include public nudity, urinating in public, public masturbation, peeping, photographing or videotaping without consent, consensual sex with a 17-year-old, sexting, and downloading unlawful pornography; many of these acts will put the offender on the public registry. There is no single “type” of sex offender; they can be from any walk of life, and any race, class, gender, or sexuality. They are fathers, mothers, brothers, teachers, and friends. Let me be clear: I am not advocating for the legitimization of these acts as appropriate. A forceful, coercive, violent sexual assault is not to be tolerated." But voyeurism, public masturbation, taping etc all fine because it's just a kink?

Then he uses the case of a 19 year old lesbian prosecuted for having consensual sex with a 15 year old girl as a prime example of how sex offenders are discriminated again. Oh come off it! How much more of an atypical, sympathy inducing case could you find?

I'm so angry!

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QuentinSummers · 30/06/2017 20:19

I agree with you m0stly. You are being entirely reasonable. I don't agree with that article. Going on about marginalisation and oppression seems like a ploy to make us feel sorry for sex offenders and that we need to accept their fetishes or they will literally die. Yeugh

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M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 30/06/2017 20:32

Thanks, Quentin. And I totally agree - that article is appalling apologism, and a prime instance of someone trying to be so open minded their brains have fallen out - open minded in a really dangerous way.

I end up having quite regular arguments with acquaintances in a different online context about kink. They are very much of the knee-jerk "your kink is not my kink and that's okay" school of thought, whereas I am very much of the "your kink is demeaning to women and normalises and excuses sexual violence in a culture in which real life sexual violence is endemic and that is very much NOT okay." Cue "you're kink shaming" - well, frankly some kinks need to be shamed. And any kink which involves real-life acts which in any way violate consent needs to be more than shamed, the perpetrators need to be locked up.

Xenophile · 30/06/2017 20:41

While I get where you're coming from Mostly, and I know that you're coming from a good place, I can't agree with you.

For me this line of thinking is like saying that rapists who rape adults are criminals, pure and simple while those who rape children have some misunderstood paraphilia. I'm loathe to use phrases like slippery slope or thin end of the wedge, but I do think that giving it a paraphilic title is the first step on a path to normalising it.

Rape, whether of children or adults is about power and control more than sexual gratification. The present academic endeavour to change the rape of children or the desire to rape children into a fetish seeks to change that.

This isn't helped when one of the major academics who believes that paedophilia is a paraphilia and that these men are somehow just need understanding also slags survivors off if they dare to challenge his beliefs. We're all "virtue signalling" and just don't understand the plight of these poor men who destroyed our lives.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 30/06/2017 20:58

I loathe the term 'queer'. It is shockingly disrespectful of the plight that homosexual men and women found themselves in and the fight they were forced into receive basic human rights and ignores the abuse they were given. Two words: Alan Turing

cuirderussie · 30/06/2017 22:22

Me too Mental. It's generational, I'm old enough to have known that word as a nasty slur directed at gay people so I really don't like using it. As I'm straight it's not my word to reclaim either. It makes me cringe to see young heterosexual people define themselves as queer which these days seems to mean "wearing a bit of eyeliner"Hmm I'm sure it must annoy gay people even more.

FastAbsorbingCake · 30/06/2017 22:34

To quote @ DancesWithOtters WHAT???????

Datun · 30/06/2017 22:38

M0stly

I think I understand what you're saying. But, then again, it's all about labels.

You can call paedophilia what you like (not you personally). An orientation, fetish, paraphilia, a kink.

We all know it's wrong.

But when someone like this author blurs the lines deliberately, I think we all know why.

If you accept one 'kink', you ought to accept another. Blah blah blah - one intellectual viewpoint propping up another.

It's completely transparent.

It's almost like he has Stockholm syndrome in reverse. He works with offenders and has developed enough empathy to find an explanation which quickly leads to excuse.

He's wrong. But there is a Zeitgeist that he is hijacking.

He is dangerous.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 30/06/2017 23:02

I think equating two young lesbians in a relationship to sex offenders who peep, photograph and video without consent/masturbate in public is disgusting, first and foremost. The two are in no way equitable.

What even is queer? These days it seems to be thrown about as an umbrella term for anyone who isn't straight.

VestalVirgin · 30/06/2017 23:10

What even is queer? These days it seems to be thrown about as an umbrella term for anyone who isn't straight.

Worse, it is thrown about as umbrella term for absolutely everyone who identifies as queer.

There's a large number of heterosexual couples who consider themselves queer for some silly reason or the other.

We have walked in a circle and are back at the original meaning of queer, I guess. It now means "anything that isn't perfectly normal".

Such as a straight couple consisting of a woman with short hair and a dude in a dress.

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 30/06/2017 23:15

Vestal It's really strange that people are so eager to take on an identity that was a horrendous slur in the not-too-distant past.

I'm loathe to insinuate that it's a trend, as I've spent the last two years getting frustrated with people who insist that bisexual women are just "following a trend" (because it's inconceivable that I like women in the same way that I like men Hmm ), but it definitely seems trendy to give yourself an undercut or wear some guyliner and label yourself queer Hmm

PoochSmooch · 01/07/2017 07:34

Queer theory obliterates the idea of good and bad sex and what should and should not be deemed deviant -and this is one of the reasons why queer theory is a steaming pile of horseshit. I have been scolded on here in the past for objecting to the term queer, but given that it's both historically offensive AND now applied so broadly as to be meaningless, I struggle to care too much about that.

From his list, I wanted to think about whether these things could ever be considered acceptable in society.

public nudity - nothing particularly wrong with this, different cultures have different standards for which body parts should & shouldn't be covered, so yes, I can see that laws could easily change here. For example, the whole saga of the Naked Rambler was pretty shameful.

urinating in public - I live in France where this is practically mandatory and while I dislike it, as I dislike spitting in the street, I can see that an argument can be made that it's relatively harmless. Again, as this varies across culture and time, it's possible that laws could be changed.

public masturbation - now we start to get problematic. When a man wanked on my back on the Tube, he can get to fuck if he thinks the laws should be changed so he has the right to do that. Wanking is not the same as peeing, it is not an inevitable biological function. It's a choice. This doesn't vary across cultures or times, and no country could reasonably propose a law accommodating this.

peeping - as above. No consent. Disproportionately affects women. No country could reasonably propose a law accommodating this.

photographing or videotaping without consent - as above. Though it very much depends what is being photographed. I assume he's angling at defending things like upskirt shots, in which case, nope.

consensual sex with a 17-year-old - this isn't a crime in many countries, so yes, this could reasonably change. I think the most progressive approach is to look at a defined age of consent (and 16 seems pretty reasonable), with a sliding scale of seriousness depending on age disparity.

sexting - complicated - this is too broad a category. Could be entirely consensual, or could be unsolicited dick pics, so hard to say.

downloading unlawful pornography - again a very broad category. Could be anything up to and including images of child sex abuse, filmed rapes, acts of severe bodily harm. If anything, laws need to be strengthened around this, not rolled back, and it deeply concerns me that he would be defending anyone for whom a diet of "normal" porn is insufficient.

So it's a total grab bag of stuff that he's lumping together. Then he says " A forceful, coercive, violent sexual assault is not to be tolerated" - which lets slip more than I think he realises. He's talking about "real" rape there, and the very second someone does that, my antenna go up, because it is inevitably followed by rape apologism.

Anyway, none of this is remotely comparable to gay rights. For a start, if he thinks same sex attraction and sex have always been stigmatised and criminalised, he's wrong, and he hasn't read his history books.

Datun · 01/07/2017 07:58

PoochSmooch

For a start, if he thinks same sex attraction and sex have always been stigmatised and criminalised, he's wrong, and he hasn't read his history books.

Yes, I noted that.

And broadly agree with your list. And his 'real' rape nonsense.

Public nudity isn't illegal in the UK. We have nudist beaches - as long as it doesn't 'harass, alarm or distress' others.

Also pooch could you clear up queer theory for me? I thought I finally knew what the term queer broadly meant. And yes it was along the lines of anything goes. But what is the 'theory' part?

venusinscorpio · 01/07/2017 08:21

It's the groundwork for normalising paedophilia and the inevitable consequence of 'identity'. If this is what I am, how can it be wrong?

YY.

PoochSmooch · 01/07/2017 08:49

I only have the woolliest understanding of queer theory, Datun, but then again, I think most people who talk about it are in much the same situation Grin I've tried reading up on it, but it's so deliberately opaque, obscure and frustrating that I frankly can't be arsed.

it seems to be a mishmash of stuff that kind of defies categorisation, but it seems to boil down to any choice being valid, particularly sexually, anything "traditional" being repressive and bad and it seems to culminate into a sort of oppression olympics race to the bottom of identity politics, where people can use a phrase like "kink shaming" with a straight face, and in defence of paedophiles.

In short, I don't get it, but I am far from concluding that's because of any deficiency in my abilities.

squishysquirmy · 01/07/2017 09:27

Public nudity is a funny one, because in some circumstances I agree that there is nothing particularly wrong with it, beyond a bit of embarasment for some onlookers. But in other circumstances it could be really threatening, and could even be a precursor to a sexual assault.
Streaker at a cricket match= funny.
Man exposing himself near a playground while waving to children = creepy and deeply disturbing.
Trouserless man leaping out of the bushes at a jogger in a secluded park = terrifying.

QuentinSummers · 01/07/2017 11:20

The other thing is (in the UK anyway) people don't go on the Sex Offenders Register automatically for all the kinds of crimes he's listed. He's listing less serious crimes to try to make registry seem unreasonable.
I still can't believe this has been written in a mainstream publication

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SylviaPoe · 01/07/2017 11:27

I'm too old for all this bollocks

Sexual predators have been trying to attach themselves to the LGB community for decades.

The arguments are always the same, but people forget it has happened before as the whole thing gets buried and denied each time.

QuentinSummers · 01/07/2017 11:36

I just Googled the article title and it was written in 2013 and is listed as recommended reading on a Web page called "I love children.net" all about how paedophilia does not mean sex offender.
The Internet makes me feel sick sometimes. It's an insight into some mens twisted minds Angry

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WinchestersInATardis · 01/07/2017 11:58

Yuck. Author of the article completely and utterly (deliberately?) misses the point.
It's all about consent.
Queer sex is a non-issue if it's consensual as most of it is.
Peeping Toms : people watched not given a choice = nonconsensual = wrong
Pedophilia : children do not have physical, emotional or mental maturity to consent = wrong
Public urination/masturbation : other members of public and children not given choice about seeing/ stepping in it = nonconsensual = wrong.
And so on and so on.
Ultimately any sexual act - whether straight or LGBTQ or kinky or whatever - is morally fine IMO as long as all parties are consenting adults capable of giving consent to all parts without duress
It's really not that fucking hard to distinguish the difference which makes me believe he doesn't want to and is simply seeking justification for his own bad behaviour.

Datun · 01/07/2017 12:00

QuentinSummers

That's awful.

And the ridiculous thing is I am still shocked. That it's recommended on that website, I mean. Despite me asserting that this is exactly what I thought.

It still comes as a shock. Because a part of you thinks, no, it can't be, can it?

Datun · 01/07/2017 12:01

One of the things I have definitely learnt last couple of years is that if you have the smallest hint of something wrong, you're probably right.

QuentinSummers · 01/07/2017 13:00

Yeah exactly datun. I feel like I see society more clearly through being feminist and a lot of stuff is gaslight ingredients on a grand scale. The Internet shows how far some men will go for sex, yet women have to pretend like that's nothe true. It's depressing

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WhiteMane · 02/07/2017 09:46

I've seen the p in the lgb letter salad advertised as standing for peadosexual on Twitter. Alot of transideology reportedly has links to peadophilia (I don't know this, but the anemie-sp?-link seems vile. Yardley has an article that covers this I think).

I don't think it's new for peadophile apologists justify their offending.

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