"Gender non-conforming" - it actually just means "conforming to gender stereotypes of the opposite sex", doesn't it?

[OlennasWimple]

Another "I always knew my son would grow up to be a girl because he played with dolls and liked to wear pink" story.

Oh hang on, this mother says it wasn't the playing with dolls and wearing pink that tipped her off - it was her son doing pirouettes when bowling.

It depends.
Personally, I'd view gender non conforming to be just getting on with what you like/dislike and you can be as (stereotypically) masculine or feminine as you like.

But it would seem that some people view gender nonconformity to mean "I'm so progressive and anti stereotypes that I'll let my child embrace a new gender stereotype".

Gender non conforming means you don't conform to either gender. You can be trans (conforming to the gender that isn't the one you were born with)
Not sure if this is actually what you're asking.

Those articles sound odd.

Since all gendered behaviours are sorted into the feminine and masculine boxes, yes, if you are a gender-non-conforming woman, you might conform more with the male gender stereotypes.

But you could also be interested in princesses AND dinosaurs, or hate football AND lipstick, thereby not fitting into any or the two gender boxes.

If you are a believer in genderism, you then label yourself nonbinary (or invent some nonsense about there being hundreds of genders), if you are a radfem, you might label yourself "gender non conforming", or just not label yourself at all because it is all bullshit.

@Flamingoprincess: No, if you do not conform to the gender that was forced onto you (because gender is a social construct!) because of your biological sex (that's the thing that exists in reality) then you are not automatically trans. You could just be a completely normal gender non-conforming person. Because gender is a social construct, and it is completely normal for people to not fit into neat little boxes other people invented.

Maisy - you put it better than me! "Gender non-conforming" ought to mean "people getting on with being people", but has been co-opted to mean "boys who conform to the stereotypes of what girls like to do and wear and girls who conform to the stereotypes of what boys like to do and wear"

I was too cross to type properly before

Gender non conforming means you don't conform to either gender. You can be trans (conforming to the gender that isn't the one you were born with)

As Vestal has beaten me to saying, no-one is born with a gender.

Olennas I agree, which in fact has actually lead to regression in thinking. What the term seems to have become to mean has enforced the notion most naturally conform to the gender society deems appropriate to them, cementing ideas of how girls/boys should behave, interests they should have and outdated "gender roles".

I think there's probably a sliding scale of 'gender non conforming'....
When I was a kid I liked a lot of stereotypically boyish things but also some stereotypically girlish things and I never actually wanted to be a boy, then there are those who don't really like anything 'girlish' and want to be boys until puberty hits (as various posters have described themselves on other threads), then I guess there are those who always want to be boys/feel they are boys and puberty doesn't make a difference or makes their situation feel even worse.

I do think gender stereotyping is harmful though, to everyone - trans or not. I guess to make a difference you just have to be the one sticking your head about the parapet and saying 'there's no such thing as boys toys/girls hobbies etc' on repeat. when people say things you don't agree with.

Gender nonconformity is just preferences. There are two sexes. So sex role stereotypes will range from hyper masculine to hyper feminine and everything in between.

Let's say there are about 50 traits, and most people pick say 20 to describe themself.

Job done. Congratulations. You're a person with preferences.

And why is it always about children? Toys? Can it possibly be because toys are so heavily gendered? Because real adult life isn't particularly. Especially pre children.

Having said that, I think gender roles are forced on women, particularly in adult life. They're not necessarily preferences.

That's probably why a lot of younger women don't see the need for feminism. It doesn't tend to kick in until you start a family.

I am not fully comfortable with the term gender non-conforming for similar reasons that I dislike non-binary etc. I feel it props up gender as a concept and is used by some as a badge of honour to separate themselves out as not like those other women who (may be considered to) blindly conform. However, I still use it sometimes for ease. It does have a purpose and is widely understood. I just believe that true gender non-conformity would be everyone getting on with things according to their own tastes and needs. Even if that means a woman wearing a pink dress (just to use a basic example). Of course it's hard to know what we do because of social conditioning and what we do of our own free choice, so it's complicated. You get some very tough, non-maternal, business-owning, dominant (trying to think of masculine stereotypes here), who look and dress very "feminine". They would likely not be considered gender non-conforming. Yet a woman who chooses to wear her hair short and dress in baggy jeans and t-shirts may well be considered gender non-conforming even if she lives up to the other female gender stereotypes (nurturing, sensitive, submissive and so on - just picking out examples from the top of my head). So I find it quite a superficial concept. But then you could say that actively choosing (or naturally preferring) not to look like a stereotypical woman, is a more direct and visible expression of breaking down gender stereotypes than other behaviours/attitudes.

Also with regards to the clothes/appearance side of things, I think if you're a man or a woman who wishes to dress in the clothes that are marketed to the opposite sex or look more like the opposite sex in other ways, you know this is going to get you attention. For years I've wanted to shave my hair off. I find it really uncomfortable having hair (I have sensory issues.) but I know that I'd get a lot of attention if I did that because I'd be very visibly stepping outside of gender norms. Same for a man who would like to wear a dress. He knows he'd get attention and may not want that. I don't shave my body hair, but I doubt as a woman I'd feel comfortable not shaving if I was darker haired, again because I know that would be viewed by some people as me making a statement and I'm really a quiet person who just wants to get on with my own life. Same with make up, I don't wear it, but I understand some women may 'choose' to do so more out of pressure than choice (and of course many genuinely enjoy it) . So in that sense I think gender roles can be enforced because the idea of going against them openly and getting attention for it is scary for some people, or in some cases not possible at all.

"I like to ask people, 'At what point did you know you were a girl?' When I was 7 years old, I knew that I was a girl and it's the same way for her. She knows that she's a girl.""

This is a quote from the second link in the op. I have seen this a lot. It implies that we have an innate sense of our sex. At seven I knew I was a girl because I was born with external female reproductive organs so I was called a girl because that is the word we use for babies born with female reproductive organs. It could have been discovered later that I was intersex, however, as I have menstruated, carried and birth young and lactated, I think that is unlikely. I knew I was a girl because I had been told I was a girl. If I had been told by everyone my whole life that I was a boy, by the age of seven, I would think I was a boy.

If pushed to describe ds2 (as I have been asked outright if he - he is five - is trans) I would say GNC. He has some examples of female stereotype and some of male stereotype. Like most people. Because gender is bullshit.
(Even most transpeople are "GNC" ime, never mind non-trans! I have never met anyone who 100% matches up with their stereotypical ideal, be that the one that matches their sex or the one that matches the opposite sex)

I will always elaborate and add the "gender is bullshit" bit, not leave the idea that he is a non binary special snowflake.
He is a child, and a normal human being.

I think there is a bit of "confusion" here (probably not the best word!) in that some use GNC to mean what you say (in which they are GC, just with the other sex) others use it to mean the way I mean.

Correction - innate gender is bullshit

The whole gender issue has disappeared up its own backside.

Women presenting as men does not cause much of a stir. Because male is seen as the default and superior sex. Men presenting as women are viewed as less than. Cissy, etc.

I do have a certain sympathy with that. Although I would love to see men demolishing gender roles, This seems to have very little to do with gender presentation.

So by all means wear a dress, but also do 50% of the housework and view women as equals.

Unfortunately my perception is that if a man is wearing a dress, it's got little to do with him taking up 50% of the traditional feminine role.

The youth seem to have taken gender expression (not gender roles) as a means of rebellion and attention seeking. Turning personality, entirely subjective and of very little interest to anyone but your own circle, into something that should be significant to everyone else and the means of making the person stand out.

This writer of this link, for instance, is breathtaking in their demands for recognition. Meaningless recognition, as far as I'm concerned.

Since when has the way someone's view of them self been any kind of indicator of how others view them?

Use whatever pronouns you are told to use. And, specifically, use all of them. If someone gives you more than one pronoun to use, don’t just pick the one that’s easy for you and ignore the rest. Use them all, and if someone asks you to use one more than the others, do that, too.

Gendervex – having multiple genders, each of which is unidentifiable

This means that at the very least, multigender people are oppressed socially and psychologically. Our identities are made invisible, they are trivialized, othered, and dismissed. We suffer stigmatization, micro-aggressions, and various forms of body terrorism. The legitimacy of our self-understanding is called into question every day.

Asking people to validate your every waking thought seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to claim victimhood. Because of course people won't do that!

thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/what-it-means-to-be-multigender-the-questions-many-have-but-are-afraid-to-ask/#.WR4fJVTBjGc.twitter

I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark that you didn't read the thread

I briefly saw that before it vanished - a disablist troll who doesn't know the difference between sex and gender.

Gender non-conforming should mean exactly what it says - someone who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes. Maybe the word we're looking for is something like, er, 'individual'?

I feel like the people who buy into genderism are using a completely different definition of gender from mine, and I've got no real understanding of what that it is.

This 'innate feeling' - can it be described in words or not? If I say I don't know what it means to feel like a woman apart from having a female body, will that always be written off as 'well you only feel it when it doesn't match your body'?

Anyone know what they're using as their working definition?

Anyone know what they're using as their working definition?

That's the question that no one can answer. If you ask them to define what they mean by the word woman, without resorting to stereotypes, they can't. The definition is anyone who identifies as one.

It stands to reason. They can't identify with female biology, so their only means of knowing that they are a woman is formed by their perception of a woman - so, stereotypes.

Then again, why does an anorexic insist they are fat? Why does someone who is trans-abled insist they should be without an arm or a leg?

Well I'm too polite to answer that

I just feel that in order to challenge this (ideally by the time my dc are subject to it!) we need to get inside the heads of the people who support it and understand a - what they really mean, and b - the best way of letting them see the harm of it.

I worry this won't be possible because much of the harm that we see rests on accepting the oppression of women, which there doesn't seem to be much of among the younger generation/women before they become mothers (with of course many exceptions).

Gender non-conforming means 'gender is bollocks I'll wear what I like and if, in your opinion, it doesn't match my sex then tough.'

Gender non-conforming good. Gender conforming good. Wearing and acting anyhow you like as long as it doesn't step on the rights of others good. Trying to claim the rights of disadvantaged groups of which you are not a member because deep inside you feel like a member, not so good.

I reckon those hairy-legged skirt wearing lads in Exeter are a good example of healthy gender nonconforming.