Why aren't there more women in tech?

[MrsJamin]

I work in tech. Most men assume women just aren't into tech and that's why we're in the minority. Is that really the case? It frustrates me that more women aren't welcomed into tech, so why do you think it is?

Has anyone else been following the news about various female whistleblowers coming forward to reveal sexual harassment from Silicon Valley VCs? mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/technology/women-entrepreneurs-speak-out-sexual-harassment.html

Much more here: geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexism_and_Racism_in_Venture_Capital

Yeah I read that. Very brave women indeed. Why should women put up with this shit just to get funding for their businesses? Ugh.

I work in IT and have a science degree, and I base that on two things. One, that I went to an all-girls school so there was no issue at all with taking all sciences. By the time I'd got to uni, the course I was on was 90% male and 10% female but I was already happy with (and good at) the subject.
The second factor for me was my dad. He's an engineer and taught all of us (male and female) to build circuits, use oscilloscopes and soldering irons etc. Nothing was off limits and we were all equally encouraged.
By university or career stage, that's way too late. The seeds are sown much much earlier in life. I'm doing my best to encourage all my children in maths and science, because it's something I love

My dd is one of only 2 girls doing computer science in her year.She wanted to do ICT but can't because of the way the choices work.She has been in the top 4 in her year for computer science pre GCSE but the teachers have made a lot of how hard it is,only those top in maths should attempt it etc.Luckily she and the other girl are good friends and supporting each other and trying to do collaborative work together as they do not get listened to by the boys.

The seeds are sown much much earlier in life.

I'd agree with this as far as getting women and girls to come on board is concerned. The truly awful attrition rates for women in tech, though, we as employers have to take upon ourselves! Internalised attitudes of our female employees definitely don't help - but it's up to us as companies to recognise and handle this.

E.g., my firm runs dedicated trainings for female employees that cover stuff such as dealing with the nagging self-doubt, having to be twice as good to be noticed, reasons why women's careers fail ... you name it. In fact, the course is so feminist that some of the participants have complained about it being too Gloria Steinem in character (it's really a lot more Sheryl Sandberg, actually, but that's not the point).

We do need to do more in this regard. And this is up to C-level leaders on the one hand but also something I very much consider a responsibility of people like myself: lower and middle management that works with these women every day. And, yes, this may sometimes have to include coaching junior women into toughening up a bit - it shouldn't have to but it's the pragmatic approach to take. It'll also, however, very much include making it abundantly clear to male colleagues that sexism won't be tolerated - and follow through of they decide to ignore our directives.

So, yes, we do need to work with our girls to get them into Tech - but once we do we very much must have their backs still. It's simply no use wasting all those young women's years on a CS degree if we're not willing to see them as an investment worth protecting afterwards.

Rant over ...

my firm runs dedicated trainings for female employees

Where is all the dedicated training for men, so that they learn women in tech roles are just as valid as they are, so they learn about all the little ways they behave - passing comments, team trips where you don't even mention it to your only female colleague, sending mails greeting, "dear gents," - a million other ways that may be meaningless on their own, but together, make a culture where it's clear women aren't really meant to be there?

Because if no on''s making an effort to fix all that, all the women-targeted training can only go so far. The main reason the attrition rate is so high is because it's so very, very tiring having to fight for everything, to be seen as a valid team member, rather than some sort of exotic add-on to make the diversity stats look better. The women aren't the ones who need to change, it's the men who make up the majority of the IT workforce and who are often not involved in any sort of diversity or culture drive that goes on. (Which is what you were saying about making it clear sexism will not be tolerated.)

EBearhug I totally agree, it's not for the women to have special women's events, it's for the men to get training to not be dicks. And it shouldn't be optional. They should all be made to sit in a room and realise how they are sexist in small ways and big ways. Many men believe that women are not naturally good at tech and that if they are there it's just to address the gender imbalance.

A friend of mine is running a survey on this topic -

www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/beitsexismsurvey

I totally see the social aspects of work that put women off. I like going to meetups as I work for a small company and I appreciate the space to learn from others in similar positions in other companies. However if I look down the "attending" list and they are all men, I am 100% put off going, especially if it is a small meetup in a pub or something. It's so annoying but it affects me that there aren't women there too. I totally get that someone needs to be the first woman who replies "attending" though. Ugh.

I managed a team of 8 men who all thought they knew better than I did and would try to ignore instructions, or shortcut because they were focused on their one area only and didn't see the wider picture. I worked on a floor with no other women, was not really included in the chats with my team which I accepted, but also never invited to things with the other (all male) managers unless I purposefully invited myself. Trying to make small talk about things such as films always led to being challenged to prove my knowledge to be allowed to participate. *

Oh that one rang so true. I remember my first job in tech where the conversations were one or all of the following
What I watched/streamed last night
What I downloaded
The amount of extra kit I bought to hold all the stuff I have downloaded
And, one a month, How awful it is that I have to pay all this tax.

I was bored out of my mind. Fortunately, just before my probation period was over my manager returned from long term sick leave and was appalled to find that the female graduate they had hired was not the nubile 20 year old he had expected but a fat, middle aged mother. Once it became obvious that he expected some sexual titillation along with the position, and I didn't fulfill his expectations about this I cheerfully left. The company was bought by venture capitalists 3 months later and was restructured out of existence so i have absolutely no regrets.

I'm in tech, and I see more women in tech every day. :)

Olly - I started answering that questionnaire, and then I got to the last question and binned it. Why would your friend be asking "have you ever seen women discriminate against men in the computing industry?" What value would that have?

MrsJamin - when I was an organiser for a women in tech group, we did a few joint meetups with other groups, cos it's easier to sign up if you know there are going to be 10 other women there and you won't be the only one.

I'm in tech, and I see more women in tech every day.

Which area of tech? Because I have seen the opposite in my 20 years in Unix, but different areas of tech do have different patterns.

I'm in IT but more from a technical pre-sales standpoint. I'm at a meeting on Thursday and I just checked the calendar invite... 18 invitees and I am the sole woman. Depressing.

What makes it more depressing is that it's actually a damn good job which is flexible and I'm able to balance well with my family life most of the time.

I have to say, having been in IT for 20 years after an Arts based degree I've worked in hardcore engineering teams and managed teams of mostly men and have never felt uncomfortable or undervalued. I will be firmly encouraging my daughter to do likewise.

I also work in tech. It's been a good career, challenging, very hard work at times, but good rewards. However, the vast majority of my coworkers over my career have been male (80%?).

Why so few women in tech? I can only give my own experience. I was not encouraged or discouraged for any specific field by parents, or at school, overall supportive of my interest of my personal tech interest.

However, as a teen I did feel a certain pressure from girlfriends with respect to thinking tech was not cool. Luckily I ignored that influence
! Now I see the same with my DD, friendship group not interested in tech (other than their iPhones), and somehow discouragingly her interest. So my personal experience has been that peer pressure from other young girls is a factor in guiding career interests.

I don't see any of that influence with DS, i.e., his friends supportive of his tech interests.

Of course I can imagine discouragement from schools, teachers, parents, etc .... just has not been my personal experience.

I think what doesn't help either is that by the time you get to A-level choices you are pressured to specialise when you really aren't ready for it. My year 10 DD enjoys science and gets very respectable grades in it, and GCSE Computing. However she is stuck with a grade-capped Foundation maths paper (having always struggled with straight calculator-free arithmetic) and A-level sciences - perhaps justifiably, given the demanding content - stipulate at least a 6 in maths. It's not difficult to see how many kids get pushed away at this stage, and it's not just girls either, though it disproportionately affects them. I liked science. I didn't want to give it up. But I felt forced to because there was only room for sciences or arts and chemistry was not my best subject.

I totally agree we specialise way too early when it comes to education here.

I have to say, I took both maths and computer science at a-level (20 years ago - me and two boys), and computer science, well, apart from organising myself and thoughts enough to write an actual program, was a piece of piss.

The theory side was about the same sort of level as the mechanics in maths (where it crosses with physics) - ie. a practical application - stuff like stacks and reverse polish, binary etc. - it's stuff that's very straightforward, clearly demonstrable. If, like me, you're better at having right answers than essays, it's not a particularly difficult subject I'd say (I am biased, obviously)

Developer (Python/full stack web development) here - I've been lucky really with the roles I've had, my first dev job was in a scientific software startup in Dublin which had quite a few women working in technical/scientific roles already so being a female dev was absolutely nothing new. I've been in my current role for 4 years and have a female manager, and nobody's been anything but respectful towards us.

I think there's generally less scope for sexist bullshit in bigger companies, which have the added bonus that family-friendly policies tend to have been worked out a long time ago and aren't anything new. That said, I'm shitting bricks about telling work that there's going to be a second maternity leave here coming up in the new year...

I studied CS in one of the biggest unis in Ireland, graduated in 2009 and added a masters a year later. My graduating class was 10% women and only two of us are in development roles 8 years on. There was quite a lot of the jockish behaviour at uni - it wasn't uncommon for the lads in the back row to be watching porn on their laptops during lectures etc.

I was in Unix network management in the Civil Service for 20 years (35 years ago). I had no problem getting the job, or getting promotion as I was good at it. There were maybe 4 women out of 25 of us on average over the years.

I left after having 2 kids because being on call 24/7 was not family friendly to the sort of life I wanted us to be able to lead.

EBearhug
eCommerce, Marketing and BizDev!

I suspect, without having figures to hand, that you'do see a quite different pattern in sys admin, networks and areas like that.

male colleagues who are being paid more than them for the same work.

Could you provide examples please?

"I think there's generally less scope for sexist bullshit in bigger companies, which have the added bonus that family-friendly policies tend to have been worked out a long time ago and aren't anything new. "

TriJo I think you're right generally, but my experience was that when I found a small company with a feminist boss, they were way way better than the large corporations I've worked for - I got to "catch up" in terms of salary because they were willing to give me the sort of payrises that would have been "HR says no" in a big company.