Fighting body shaming and stereotypes in infants school

[SleepWhatSleep1]

So my 5yo will only wear dresses now (having previously hated dresses) as "girls wear dresses, boys wear trousers". She has only once seen me (her mother) in a dress. At my wedding.
She now won't wear blue.
Comes out with statements such as girls can't do X job. Only boys can be doctors (her grandmother is a doctor, and her GP is female). Or only mummies stay at home to look after children (Dh was SAHD last year for one year).

There's also been talk about boys making comments about seeing the girls pants and commenting on their "fat" legs and tummies. I have made the teacher aware to pass on to the lunchtime supervisors.

Im actually horrified. I try to talk about it with her but apparently I know nothing. Her teacher denies all knowledge.

She also sees me shaving my legs and arms and talks about her hairy arms and how women have to be hairless. She's 5!! I can't not shave though - I'm incredibly hairy (have had much laser hair removal on my face and still tweezers daily) and have previously had harassment in the street due to it, and cannot cope with that currently.

What do I do?!

No advice as my girls are younger and I've not yet experienced it but this is terrible OP.

I can't believe that she has internalised all this shit from one year at school. She has grown up in a feminist household with a reasonable amount of equality (we squabble over me doing all the nights, but away from the children). She is not exposed to any tv other than cbeebies, and the odd dvd
Even the DVDs I've carefully selected! - no weak princesses to be rescued here!

Argh

SleepWhatSleep1 I'm sorry you are going through this. I would suggest you do your best to counter these arguments but not repeat them.

So don't say what she has said and then tell her it is wrong. Instead say

"Girls and women can study any subject they like, so can boys and men, Girls and women can do any job they like, so can boys and men."

Instead of repeating "Only boys can be doctors" and then saying that's rubbish just point out next time at your surgery, wow, 5 female doctors here. Nice men and women doctors here! Or whatever.

"There's also been talk about boys making comments about seeing the girls pants and commenting on their "fat" legs and tummies. I have made the teacher aware to pass on to the lunchtime supervisors." Well done.

If your dd says this to you ask her what she thinks, does it matter if someone tummy or leg is a bit bigger than someone else's? Of course.

Why do those people say it, is it to make people feel not very nice? If they want to make someone feel bad, then it's best to ignore them. But tell me and I will tell the teachers because mean comments are just mean!

"Her teacher denies all knowledge." Maybe her teacher doesn't hear what is going on. You could ask the TAs or the lunchtime supervisors.

In my dd's school there were boys who said they wanted to rape the girls! I bet the teachers never heard that either!

If I went to work and told my boss a colleague had something similar in my hearing I expect the last thing he or she would say is "Well I didn't hear it!"

Maybe she also wants to fit in at school, find the harmless things for her to fit in with but keep on with positive female messages.

Comes out with statements such as girls can't do X job. Only boys can be doctors (her grandmother is a doctor, and her GP is female). Or only mummies stay at home to look after children (Dh was SAHD last year for one year).

This really does show how worryingly pernicious the messages children receive from such a young age are - so forceful that they even outweigh what your daughter has experienced for herself. You're also not alone as I recall another thread on another board on here not too long ago from someone who'd been having the same issues with her daughter. It's incredible how much the general sexism and outdated sex stereotypes inherent in society is absorbed by children, sometimes reinforced by school rather than combated from what I've read.

I think Italiangreyhound's advice seems excellent. Definitely worth commenting on her doctor to her, asking what her dad did last year which might make her consider he was a SAHD, maybe ask if she thinks it's fair women "have to be" hairless when men don't and so forth.

There's also been talk about boys making comments about seeing the girls pants and commenting on their "fat" legs and tummies. I have made the teacher aware to pass on to the lunchtime supervisors.

I very much hope the teachers can do something about this but it's rather disturbing how early this kind of behaviour and view of girls is taking hold now, normalised at such a young age.

Thanks NoLoveofMine.

OP the hair thing is an option. I rarely shave. Anything. But I pluck my facial hair. I would have a hairy chin if I did not.

I don't think one has to do either, or not do either, it is a choice. But in order to fully understand choice one needs to try things a bit. Just remind her body hair is a long way off! My 6 year old keeps trying to force my head into his smelly armpit! What he fails to realize is it smells sweet, because no body odour yet.

There will be plenty of time for things growing up 'issues'. Remind her to be an awesome girl before she is an awesome women!

Don't share this with your dd but just for you.... You really oughta think

Thanks for the advice.
I'm slightly ashamed to say I have probably spluttered a but incoherently at her when she's come out with these statements - pointing at our own family contradictions. But I suppose that doesn't count because it shows that us as a family are the exception. I need to point out more general rebuttals. In a non confrontational way!

I just wasn't prepared for this so soon :(

It's awful isn't it? I get really cross and upset (not with her, with the world) when my daughter says things like "only boys can like superheroes" or "boys are better at x".

We explain anyone can like anything (and I think it's important that she knows boys can like things that might be considered girly too), talk about how mummy likes superheroes and things like that.

One thing I think has helped her recently is starting crossfit. She has seen me do it for a while, so started to understand girls can be strong. Now she does it herself she tells people what she's achieved, says she's getting stronger, will show off her muscles and shows the boys at school how to do burpees. I think it's really helped her confidence.

I have boys - and the eldest is away with the fairies, so these things rarely hit home anyway, and the youngest is 3, and very firm in his love of pink and sparkly so will not hear any different. BUT, when I've had these conversations with DS1 I've put on my best confused and befuddled face, and asked him why blue would only be for boys (helps that they all know my favourite colour is, and has always been blue) or pink for girls or whatever - and generally they can't come up with an answer, so I reinforce that with something along the lines of 'all toys/colours are for anyone that likes them, why on earth would only some things be for some people'

and they wander off happy again. That's not going to work for a kid that cares more about what people think though, only for my head in the clouds/unbelievably stubborn two.

Have you asked her who is telling her those things?

Ds is coming to the end of reception and I've been amazed at what he's picked up as well.

Only boys like superheroes, girls like princesses. Boy tv vs Girl tv, Boys don't have friends who are girls etc. We're navigating it ok, I just tell him that girls and boys can like whatever they want and be friends with whoever they want - he mostly accepts what I say. I do think it'll get worse as it gets older though. We've already had one parent only invite the girls to a party - despite the fact her daughter is closer to many if the boys.

I think it can come as a shock when your kids go to school to realise that in many homes, gender stereotypes are still quite rigidly policed. And kids bring that into school.
My dd went through similar but at nine has largely got past it. What worries me now is two girls with very silly clean eating mothers have joined the class and she is now coming home querying whether she should have cheese "because their mummies say dairy is bad".
Sadly there is no school that will protect your child from rubbish spouted by idiots!

In my experience this is coming from the other kids rather than school itself, teachers and ht are excellent and promote the message that you can be who you want to be.

Karlos I would've raging if Ds came hone thinking that!

I think I will raise it with the teacher. She's pretty sound on this stuff.

I had a similar issue with ds when he started school. All of a sudden anything pink or glittery was disgusting because it was girly, girls were horrible, boys were better than girls and girls can't run or play sport as well as boys. We also had lots of questions about what "gay" is.

I continued with the mesage I'd always given that colours are just colours, anyone can play sport and be good at it if they try hard and that everyone is different anyway. Also explained that some people use gay in a mean way but it's not fair or nice to be mean to people because of who they are.

Ds is nearly 7 now and has found his voice and discovered he can have his own opinions. He a great advocate of the fact that boys and girls can love other boys or girls and that's ok, he sees excellent female and male sports people at the sports clubs we go to (martial arts, swimming and my roller derby club) and while he still has a personal dislike of pink, he now (thankfully) accepts that a plate is just a plate even if it is pink and that doesn't mean it's just for girls.

It's worrying when this happens, and it makes me angry that children pick up on these stereotypes, but I think in most cases it's a phase they grow out of pretty quickly. I remember being gobsmacked at my younger dd assuming a female doctor she saw must be a nurse - especially as half our female friends are doctors!

Both my dds came out with odd things like this aged about 5 or 6. Now, at 14 and 10, they're fiercely feminist. Don't get flustered, just keep calmly and casually pointing out people doing non-sex-stereotypical jobs, and they'll soon work out that the things people are telling them are nonsense.

Just keep talking to your daughter/other children if you have them, explaining and refuting. You did the right think pointing out the 'fat' issue to the teacher. I had to do that at my daughter's school as she came home insisting she was fat. I did go on a bit of a feminist rant to my daughter about having to be a decent healthy size to be strong, just like boys, and would the same comments be made about a boy the same size? The school were pretty good and said that they would have some discussions about it as they didn't want that sort of thing going on at school.

It is odd how kids end up with the gendered division of labour. A friend's daughter said that women couldn't be doctors. My friend (female) IS a doctor!!! I guess lots of books, tv etc tend to have mainly gendered roles.

I think if you carry on being quite firm in your views and explanations things get easier as they get older (well in primary school at least) as your daughter will have the tools to question things herself. My kids have been brought up to believe that the only thing boys can do that girls can't is pee standing up, and they take great joy in repeating that.

thing not think!

I tried to chat to some of the other mums at school drop off this morning.
Most couldn't see the problem, but one is going to chat to the teacher about it (I have 2 smaller children with me so find it difficult).

I will keep talking to my dd though - and hope it's just a phase!

I'm a teacher (middle school), and I find that when a child has the wrong end of the stick, it's easier to talk them round by asking questions than by making statements. Instead of "well, grandma's a doctor, dude, stop chatting absolute guff!" try "what job does grandma do?" or "why do you think that? what proof do you have?" I know she's five, but that sort of thing.
I think it's a short stage of working through the conditioning all around her and she'll come out the other side. Bloody scary though.

My mum is a doctor and I recall about age five getting into a row with other kids who insisted their doctor was a man. Not possible I said. Also I didn't believe men were allowed to be prime minister. Mrs thatcher clearly had made a strong impression on me.
The world seems different now, sadly

My mum is a doctor and I recall about age five getting into a row with other kids who insisted their doctor was a man. Not possible I said.

Though I've not had similar arguments I automatically picture medical staff as women as my mum's a dentist and a couple of her (female) friends who've always been round regularly also are, so I always saw them as "the dentists" growing up, plus have only ever had women as my GPs so only seen women if I've gone to the doctors.

Things seem to have regressed hugely in this respect now, I've read a few anecdotes of people similar to the OP finding their children say "doctors have to be men" and rigidly enforce completely outdated sex stereotypes. I even read a piece by a (surprisingly, Tory) MP just after Theresa May became Prime Minister saying he hoped it'd help "prove" to the schools he goes to do talks at in his constituency that women could become MPs as many had asked him or suggested only men could be.

Also I didn't believe men were allowed to be prime minister. Mrs thatcher clearly had made a strong impression on me.made a strong impression on me.

*In the 1980s, my dad (a teacher) mentioned James Callaghan, the previous prime minister, to his class. One boy asked, "Are men allowed to be prime minister too?" Having a female pm definitely helps!

Sleep "I tried to chat to some of the other mums at school drop off this morning.
Most couldn't see the problem"

I think Wonderflonium's advice could work for mums (and dads too)!

" Instead of "well, grandma's a doctor, dude, stop chatting absolute guff!" try "what job does grandma do?" or "why do you think that? what proof do you have?"

So you could say "Would it worry you if you felt your child (I'd try saying child rather than daughter, just to see if it made any difference!) felt there were certain jobs they could not do, could not even try out for, and that these ideas were fixed very early in life?"

I recon most parents would say yes, it would bother them.

"Would it bother you if your child was made to feel embarrassed or ashamed about their body, and that it somehow wasn't good enough?"

Most parents would probably find both those things worrying. But once it is couched in 'feminist' language some parents might switch off! (NO idea why that is but there you go!)