nastiness in the online trans debate

[dangermouseisace]

Posting here as I'm just feeling rather miserable about how horrible people can be. I know, I should just remove myself from such arguments, but I know there are a fair few other MNtters on twitter etc.

I don't know if it's just me…I'm hoping it's not…but I feel so awful about how horrible people can be on twitter. I don't care about if it's directed at me, that's fine, but I think that the deliberate targeting of trans people on twitter is not on. My philosophy is that no matter what my views on gender, these people are actual human beings living actual real lives, with feelings, friends, families and careers. I'm happy to have an argument about theory, politics or policy, but I feel that personal attacks are unnecessary and actually counter productive.

Some examples are a trans woman who works for womens aid NI. She seems to be doing a good job and relating the experience of her friend, not herself and she's been in a psychiatric hospital in the past. Why attack her personally? I think that is inhumane.

Also Dr Rachel McKinnon. I disagree with much of what she says and does but the level of vitriol is astonishing…people getting in touch with her university dept trying to get her sacked etc. I just don't think it's right.

I think there is nothing to be gained by personal attacks nastiness, apart from switching people off to the gender debate as many would just assume that gender critical feminists are balls of anger and hate. What ever people think about trans issues, these people must have had issues prior to transitioning that needed resolving to see transitioning as a solution, and I can't imagine it was something undertaken lightly. I am talking about those that have actually gone for sex reassignment, not transvestites such as Riley or that bloke that works for Stonewall by the way.

Am I not a feminist for thinking this way? Expecting to be flamed, off to borrow a fireman's helmet from my kids...

Women seem to be held to higher standards than MTT. When women highlight things MTT say or do, we are told its not important - it's only one persons view or it's activists, not true trans people. When one woman says something wrong, its supposedly a reflection of the whole of feminism, and we have to stop the debate and apologise.

YY.

It's quite a provocative act and I would question the MTT motivation.

Me too. transactivists love doing this type of deliberately goady "activism". It's an attack on women only spaces.

Actually, I have seen women go on the attack. But I have seen this played out over several years. It is not the first line of defence, nor the second, nor the third.

Women are constantly threatened with rape and violence. They are called cunts, bitches, told to die, told they will be raped with a broken bottle. Transactivists have gone after the families of people who are critical of the ideology.

Feminists are certainly not violent abusers. This has been the result of a long, consistent campaign of provocation and quite dreadful misogynistic threats.

I have seen women stick to the facts, remain patient, civil and polite. And been treated to the most disgusting language imaginable.

Quite frankly, OP, they're over it.

Should we tar all trans people with the same brush? No, of course not.

Should we conclude that most transactivists are misogynistic men?

Yes.

m.facebook.com/Exposing-Trans-Activists-1962284500669200/#!/Exposing-Trans-Activists-1962284500669200/

And although Rachel McKinnon referred to TERF's as cockroaches again it's not individual

It's an appalling way to describe any group. And that's ignoring the insult in "Terfs"

Indeed. The word terf is a slur. I have never seen it used in any other way. It is almost always followed by a threat of some description.

Mckinnon called women terfs, shitheads and trash. It's funny how terf is never applied as an insult to a man. There is no male equivalent.

The video they made was creepy. On Mother's Day. And it was aimed at minors. They retracted that afterwards, but since anyone over the age of 18 does not need parental support the implication was there.

What man would get away with making a video exhorting teenagers to Skype them and come and join their 'glitter family' should their parents be unsupportive?

OP, I agree that when women, particularly feminists, get involved in a slanging match, it can jar enormously. We are simply not used to it.

But firstly, there is no doubt that women are definitely held to a higher standard. We are shocked when women go on the attack. We are resigned when men do it.

Secondly, you have to realise that women who are at the coalface of this debate are saturated by the trans-misogyny. They are fighting a heinous battle, which definitely targets children. They are never going to err on the side of caution. It's too late for that.

I don't know about the transwoman in Ireland. But any transwoman who has elected to work with vulnerable women is, by that act, not interested in preserving their boundaries.

Datun

Wow. Just wow. Did you see the Facebook thread from your link about "otherkin" and "multigenders"? Both an example of the viciousness of transactivists and the po faced utter absurdity of the ideology.

What man would get away with making a video exhorting teenagers to Skype them and come and join their 'glitter family' should their parents be unsupportive?

As people have noted, it's the "love bombing" tactic of a cult.

venus

Totally agree. I honestly don't think I could ever bring myself to talk like that to strangers on a forum. Or anyone really.

I just had a read of the conversations on your link and although I don't agree with the OP that there is 'nastiness' particularly coming from the feminist side, it did make my brain ache.

The combative tone isn't great PR for the feminist position - not in the "women are not allowed to express anger" sexist/silencing way, just that it is wearing and exhausting to witness people arguing about confusing,convoluted things in such a heated way. I don't think the majority of people have the patience to unpick it. So it is easier to fold your arms, wag your finger and say "well... I think you're all being nasty!".

Ok...well thanks for all taking the time to comment and explain. I followed the Facebook link which is just crazy. I feel like I've got a bit more perspective on the situation now rather than just my immediate WTF reaction. I'm a Mum and my career has been working with vulnerable people/very equalities based so maybe I'm more shocked by the whole vitriol thing than if I'd come from a different background. I'm used to being on the side receiving the aggro not giving it, so what you've pointed out about women being held to a higher standard resonates...internalised misogyny I suppose. And the more I thought and wrote about McKinnon the further I got myself into a hole...yup. I still don't agree with how far things go but I feel I've had an injection of cynicism.

I've been on mumsnet for donkeys years, only on twitter for a little bit. So asking by questions here about feminist issues I felt like there would be more of balanced and thoughtful response/more explanation. So, thanks.

Totally agree with bob's point on the higher standards that women are held to. Transactivist misogyny, threats, borderline hate speech etc is excused on the grounds of vulnerability or dismissed as not speaking for all trans people. Feminists have to answer for everything any woman said, ever. And we better be nice while we're doing it!

I'm not on twitter because it seems to me that it's the last place a person should go for rational debate on nuanced issues, and also it seems rife with the kind of nastiness you describe in your OP, coming from all directions. As far as your two examples go, though, I'm with PPs in that Rachel McKinnon ought to be held to account, and that people should be permitted to disagree that it's appropriate for a trans woman to work for a women's charity.

I've never seen gender critical feminists on twitter threatening physical/sexual violence towards trans people, or detailing violent fantasies about what they wish would happen to trans people.
I have seen trans males on twitter doing the above though.
I don't think it's the feminists who need to be told to be nicer, tbh

Yup, because if we're just nicer to people who threaten us, they'll totally start listening.

Could I have some suggestions then?

The next Transactivist/transperson who tells me to kill myself/drink bleach/get raped when I counter hyperbole with scientific facts...

How should I react?

I've not seen Gender Critical Feminists telling people not to read X because they're Genderists either - but it's ubiquitous the other way around.

If your argument/feelings can't handle even the thought of other people reading about other people's opinions on a subject, perhaps it's not as solid as you thought.

(and it's knives, forks, spoons, and tops from the side, and bottoms from the top. Unless you can give me a very good reason to change my mind - you can read as many other opinions on the matter as you like, but if they differ from mine, they are wrong.)

I haven't seen any of these debates on twitter.

What is the point of them, from a feminist perspective?

It's so difficult to debate/question/challenge trans demands without coming across as confrontational. Trans theory is attempting to change everyday language and are constantly changing the narrative.

When men, who have fathered children, come onto a feminist section of a parenting forum and claim to have always been female, why shouldn't I get angry? And why can't i show my anger? Should I just say, OK perhaps the words female, women and sex mean different things now. Why does the perceived vulnerability of a group mean I lose the words to describe myself and my experiences.

I'm not criticising you, op. It is just so exhausting having to justify why we need to have words to describe ourselves and spaces to keep ourselves safe when the reasons are bloody obvious. Not only that but we have to put our point across in a nice, polite way, that somehow doesn't offend anyone.

It is not the role of women to keep everyone happy at our own expense, despite what adult human males think.

Like you OP, I've been on Mumsnet for years, but have only dipped my toe in Twitter recently.

And TBH, I think it's depressing me. The vitriol I can handle. It's nasty, but I find it easy to shrug off. It's the absolute adherence to lies that I find harder to take.

The claim that they're not only women, but female. The talk about having a uterus surgically inserted so that they can give birth. The stubborn exhortations that just because this hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen. Everything is a social construct. Black is white, yadda yadda yadda.

Some of them MUST be trolls, on a wind-up. But some of them seem to genuinely believe total tosh.

It has also introduced me to the concept of post-modernism, and I am left with the feeling that many of these people and engaged on a theoretical/intellectual exploration of how far you can push language, with no concerns as to the very real consequences of their flights of fancy. Essentially, they are shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre for shits 'n' giggles.

As I said, I'm finding it depressing. I think I should leave Twitter.

'...why shouldn't I get angry? And why can't i show my anger?'

Because it probably isn't good for your own mental health to get angry.

And it stops people who might otherwise listen stop listening, because they find it stressful and distressing to listen to people being angry.

And presumably most of the people trying to listen are not trans activists. Trans activists themselves are almost certainly not going to change their minds, so they're not really your audience.

I hear you. Otherwise sensible, rational people can go along with 'they are all women, stop being a bigot and let them in', but as soon as a woman gets angry about the hate speech its unacceptable to listen to, offputting, and bad for our mental health.

Christ almighty. That McKinnon persons twitter, my blood pressure can't take it.

I wonder if she's literally an expert in anything? (spoiler: yes she is, she says so in every post)

DJ, large numbers of people don't go along with all of that though, do they? They just stay away from the whole debate.

Personally I will discuss it on MN, because MN has guidelines and a decent standard of behaviour. I wouldn't discuss any controversial issue on Twitter.

And transactivists behave in an abusive way - not just the threats, but the gas lighting, invasion of privacy etc.

There is no constructive way of engaging with abusers. There are only damaging and dysfunctional ways of engaging with abusive dysfunctional people.

The only place they can be debated with in a constructive way is where there is a third party that will agree standards of behaviour.

There is a well-known feminist blogger who is undergoing treatment for a serious illness at the moment. Certain members of the trans community have used it as an opportunity to post some absolutely revolting comments to and about her. Things that nobody should think or write...you can't debate with that sort of mentality.

While I don't condone personal attacks, I can understand why some feminists feel pushed into retaliating. It must be exhausting to argue against the frankly utterly stupid shite trans activists come out with, and instead of being met with reasoned debate being told to die or be told that someone hopes you get raped. Only a man would use rape as a threat, so how they can claim to be women astounds me when they clearly have no understanding or sympathy for the atrocities women have suffered for millennia at the hands of men. Mumsnet opened my eyes to the potential damage that the trans agenda poses, and now that I have a daughter it seems all the more real and frustrating. You can't actively campaign against the trans movement for fear of losing your job or being attacked or your family being targeted. To be honest that makes me very very angry, to be forced to play a feminine gender role by shutting up and letting the men invade our spaces and steal our rights ,scholarships, participation in sports, job opportunities etc etc as expressing any criticism of maiming children or much needed sex segregated spaces would be detrimental to my life. It feels like we can only hope that people start to wake up to what is happening and a large enough group can influence policy in the way trans activists have. Muslim women will be most affected by trans invasion of women's spaces but in the current climate I don't know if even their collective voices would make a difference. I would do more as it's likely I will be a SAHM for a long while, so no job to lose over my views, but DP works with vulnerable teenagers, including MTTs so I couldn't endanger his career by expressing my views.

I have seen reasonable debate and questioning being met by TRAs responding that this is "literal" violence to them. Not seen any feminist, radical or otherwise, say that anyone cannot live their lives in the presentation style they feel comfortable with.

Have seen daily death/rape threats to women just for questioning and trying to understand the Trans narrative.
If I were to go on the TRAs angle of discussion, this article below would be violence to WPCs, whose identity is being eroded as a performance, a pantomime - the Police Officer isn't Trans but gender fluid - they are trans when they feel like it or can be bothered with hair, make up, etc. What a waste of money on extra paperwork for the fake ID and extra uniform.
www.google.com.mt/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk