Women Who Work ... and Self-Sabotage

[BossyBitch]

Sorry for the Trump-inspired title - couldn't resist, given that it's actually pertinent to the subject.

I'm hoping for some useful insights here. I'm a woman in tech and trying and failing to place women on my client projects. My firm is actively supportive and not the problem in this particular case. Much to my horror, however, I've become somewhat of a repository of real-life examples of the kind of female self-sabotage commonly described in literature.

For the purpose of illustration, these are some of the most recent gems from actual client interviews that I sat in on and cringed my way through:

• [Candidate is asked about her professional history and does fine up to describing her A-levels, then volunteers the following] ... so I enrolled at Oxford but then I failed my math exams [...] and then I failed the exam again and was made to leave, so I enrolled with the OU instead because there are no formal acceptance criteria
• I just put that project on my CV for fillers, really my colleagues did almost all of the work on it. I only [description of precisely what she was interviewing for].
• I reckon one could [perfect response to the question] - but I've only read that and have never actually done it in practice
• ...

These are all highly competent women whom I would have placed easily had they not opted to take a mid-sized nuke and shoot themselves in the foot with it. I see an urgent need to actively coach my women to do better in such situations but, TBH, really don't know where to start. The issue is obviously bigger than just my projects, the problem being that it doesn't make commercial sense for the firm to keep on pushing its female quota if we can't get our current women employees staffed to begin with.

Possibly relevant: I don't do great at self-promotion myself but am aware that it's part of the job and actively self-police in such situations.

I'm in a perfect position to push the issue and maybe even start a larger initiative but could really use some helpful input.

Noni, I second Mineral's input re. determination. Quite frankly, I expect the people I hire to be hard working and determined, that's not a unique selling point but a basic requirement. Raw talent, on the other hand, gets me really excited about a candidate.

Then again, in my particular job, where people are basically hired to profile straight out of university, it would in many ways be a perfect answer:

Quite frankly - and this is not something you'll ever write on a slide deck or even hear said out loud very often - here's what we're looking for in a perfect graduate hire: they're brilliant, especially in terms of their anaytical skills, they have great people skills and they're just a little bit insecure in themselves. Point 1 makes them capable of doing the job. Point 3 makes them receptive to feedback and means you won't have endless arguments about the fact that some portion of new analyst work consists of stuff they're essentially overqualified for. Point 2 means their lack of confidence won't be a problem in itself and that their brilliance can actually be leveraged in a team setting. With the answer above, you'd check 1 and 3 (providing the rest of the answers confirm this impression). But this is arguably a very consulting specific view.

That having been said (hence the explanation) it's not bragging or great selling. It basically says 'I believe my success is the result of me working my arse off rather than me just being that good' to me.

HTH

We recently had a male senior colleague make a mistake at work. He literally could not apologise. His explanation was passive aggressive obfuscation. He went down hugely in my estimation.

I agree that women should be confident. BUT we should also stop rewarding bullshitters. i think we should stop sending women on confidence courses and start sending men on 'stop bullshitting and stop falling for others' bullshit' courses

stop falling for others' bullshit' course

Oh this! If they were always pulled up on the bullshit, they wouldn't need courses on stopping it, because if they never got away with it and it wasn't seen as acceptable, there'd be no point doing it.

And working together to make sure errors aren't repeated in future, rather than spending so much energy on fixing blame - and making sure it's anyone but themselves.

I do this, I'm terrible.

My boss has recently resigned and when he said I should apply I actually didn't say anything for about 5 minutes and then said something along the lines of "oh well I suppose I could, just so I can see where my experience gaps are, as long as it's not completely deluded to even try for it".

What. A. Tit.

I am always the smartest person in the room....until evidence to the contrary is produced.

The problem with not 'boasting' in interviews is that, you might know you can do the job, but if you don't tell me (the interviewer) outright then I'm going to doubt it aren't I? Don't make me work to find out if you're good enough - I'm busy, interviewing is time consuming and I need to get a good read on everyone quickly. If you're great, tell me FFS! That's what you're there for!

stop bullshitting and stop falling for others' bullshit' courses

This is awesome. Maybe we could set up a programme of anti-bullshit training courses.

I do a lot of presentations and it amuses me how often a male attendee will mention my confidence or make a joke that it's not something I am short of. I am confident and effective at dealing with anyone who is at all difficult. This is unremarkable and they would never comment on these qualities in a man. It's part natural and part deliberate but everyone should practise the hard stare, long pause, unsmiling response and the refusal without explaination. It's liberating

My late FiL, on meeting me for the first time, said to my DH that I was 'a lovely girl, but rather contrary isn't she?' Because I disagreed with him. Over something tiny - I admired a woman's suit in a shop window, which he thought was awful, and I didn't change my mind.

My DH once told me I argued like a man. On pressing, he said it's because I didn't back down!

And I found out that at two of the places I've worked, I was known as 'scary Datun'. I'm sooo not scary. Just confident. In a normal, smiley way.

I had this thread in mind as I was marking some Y9 mock job application letters. Even at the age of 13-14 with the same guidance on how to sell yourself and structure your letter, there's a stark difference between the letters produced by the girls compared to the boys.

Girls - talk about themselves in moderate ways, focus on skills and experience through a 'team-player', position, and are too honest about 'weaknesses' that would put the employer off.

Boys - very confident, full of how amazing they would be for the company, and all prior experience is about them as an individual excelling over others.

We're going to now build in more about the pay gap / imbalanced CEO positions and I will read the book mentioned. Is it suitable to recommend that they read all of it, or should I just provide key passages?

Datun My FIL is a bit like this but in quite an admiring way. Apparently I'm headstrong, no-nonsense and uncompromising. I'm not sure, I just expect DH to do half the cleaning in the house he lives in.

Caleb That's really sad to read

This is certainly an interesting topic.

I'm a designer, we were taught at university to show confidence, I found I often oversell myself.

I am now in a management position and was quite out of my depth when I took the job ( to escape a psycho woman hating boss in my previous role).

I think peers and experiences are equally important in these situations.

I am from a family where my mother stayed at home and only returned to the work place when my youngest sister was a teen.

beingsunny
I am from a family where my mother stayed at home and only returned to the work place when my youngest sister was a teen

Do you think that matters? Or makes a difference?

My mum always worked and had odd opinions on women who didn't work. But, she always worked in a female-dominated role and was adamant that men were unsuited to her line of work (care).

MineralWater

Yes, mine was the same, really. He used to say I should be running a conglomerate. But it was the hint that I was displaying male qualities that got up my nose.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that I grew up in a family where I was the first to undertake further education, was quite unsupported in that and have a traditional older style mother figure, yet I was influenced by other experiences

I am quite a strong and independent person and I think personality may play a big part in it not just upbringing.

It is interesting to me hearing other academics talk about this. I don't find myself feeling at all shy about self-promotion. Like Mineral I have a promotion application in now - will find out the result on June 1st! I actually quite enjoyed writing it, and reflecting on my achievements.

Mind you, I know I am often seen as "direct" and "feisty". But it doesn't seem to bother people and I feel that my work is appropriately rewarded.

I am a mentor in a women's mentoring scheme at my institution and I can see that that directness doesn't come naturally to many women, though.