Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hearing on Canada's Bill C-16 regarding gender identity and gender expression

34 replies

BlueSunGreenMoon · 11/05/2017 13:01

You can hear Meghan Murphy’s testimony here:

purplesagefem.wordpress.com/2017/05/10/radical-feminist-testimony-on-bill-c-16/

OP posts:
DixieFlatline · 13/05/2017 00:55

Sorry, should have clarified - it's not the full hearing, but seems to be the full version of the part with those against the bill.

YorkshireTree · 13/05/2017 11:08

Even transwomen know this law is a clusterfuck.

Here is Theryn Meyer's testimony.

vesuvia · 13/05/2017 11:43

Datun wrote - "I agree about mentioning the word patriarchichy [sic]. It is one of those words that can still produce an eye roll and you lose half your audience."

I suppose feminists could use a long phrase such as "the male-centric set of values that oppress women and girls based on biological sex" instead of "patriarchy".

There are pros and cons to both options. Patriarchy is obviously shorter but it is also obscure to many people. I think many people mistakenly assume that patriarchy doesn't actually exist now and was only something from past times, such as a father deciding which man his daughter could marry.

Although my suggested alternative phrase is longer, it does give more explicit details about what feminists are currently fighting against.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 12:05

I suppose feminists could use a long phrase such as "the male-centric set of values that oppress women and girls based on biological sex" instead of "patriarchy".

It's better. I listened to the opening statements of the 3 and frankly I don't think either Murphy's or the other woman whose name I can't remember were particularly good. I'll probably get told I suffer from internalised misogyny for saying this but the 3rd male speaker whose name I also can't remember made a better case.

It's not people like you she has to convince. I didn't find her particularly convincing- dismissing me as "but you're not a feminist" doesn't make her argument any more convincing.

She had 5 minutes to present a strong, attention grabbing case and she didn't.

Again, I expect this won't go down well either but the videos posted of Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson took less than 5 minutes and made the same points more effectively.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 12:06

Sorry to be clear, obviously neither Shapiro or Carlson are giving evidence here but have commented on trans issues elsewhere.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/05/2017 12:08

I agree about mentioning the word patriarchichy [sic]. It is one of those words that can still produce an eye roll and you lose half your audience.

Isn't it weird that 'transphobia' doesn't?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 12:39

Even transwomen know this law is a clusterfuck

Here is Theryn Meyer's testimony

Theryn Meyer has spoken out in support of a Canadian university lecturer who was getting hammered for incorrect pronoun useage.

Meyer is a libertarian, professional contrarian. I quite like her , but that is a minority opinion on here. She certainly has no time for the likes of Riley Dennis and "literal violence"

DonkeySkin · 13/05/2017 13:26

Although on the one hand I was glad that the feminist analysis of gender was presented at the hearings, overall I agree with Lass that Hilla Kerner's and Meghan Murphy's testimonies are unlikely to change the minds of any of the senators. Lass is right: an argument such as that pursued by Shapiro or Carlson, which exposes the inherent absurdities of the whole notion of 'gender identity', would probably have been more effective (maybe even devastatingly effective).

As Theryn Meyer pointed out (and Murphy and Kerner also mentioned but only in passing), 'gender identity' is impossibly vague and legally incoherent, and politicians should be called to account for their attempts to create a protected category that has no objective, definable characteristics. While Murphy made an admirable case for the feminist analysis of gender, the sad truth is that most people don't care. Most people don't really believe that women are an oppressed class of persons (whereas everyone seemingly accepts at face value that any man who claims to be a woman is horribly oppressed), so it is very difficult to get them to care about the ways that gender hurts women, or to see any harm in allowing men to appropriate the category of 'woman'.

The other big problem that the feminists faced and which is, I think, the central problem for everyone who is attempting to put the brakes on anti-woman gender identity legislation, is that the senators were clearly operating on the belief that 'transwoman' means transsexual, i.e., an ultra-feminine, likely gay man who has undergone full transition with surgery and who passes as a woman reasonably well - someone like Theryn Meyer, in other words. As anyone who is familiar with the current state of the trans movement knows, most of the males who identify as transwomen are heterosexual, non-passing men who intend to keep and use their penises - but so few of their supporters seem to realise that! That's why bringing up Stefonknee or Danielle Muscato would probably have been much more effective than attempting to explain patriarchy theory in five minutes.

And that is one of the peculiar ironies of this whole gender identity madness: the trans movement is advancing its agenda by using old-school transsexuals as political cover, while at the same time the legislation they push is explicitly designed to obliterate the meaning of transsexual, and is instead intended to allow any man, at any or no stage of transition, to claim a 'female identity', and make it illegal for anyone to question him or deny him access to female spaces or programs on the basis of his self-declaration. In other words, like all legislation that protects the sexist and nonsensical category of 'gender identity', it essentially abolishes sex as a legal category, rendering any sex-based protections for women moot. I really wish someone had made that point, instead of arguing about the oppressions faced by 'female-born women' vs 'transwomen', and who has it worse. Most people will always believe that trans males have it much, much worse, because most people think sexism is just women whining about nothing anyway.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/05/2017 13:50

As Theryn Meyer pointed out (and Murphy and Kerner also mentioned but only in passing), 'gender identity' is impossibly vague and legally incoherent

To be fair to Murphy and Kerner it is far easier for Meyer to say that. They would likely be accused of transphobia if they did. Meyer certainly gets accused of being transphobic. I suspect there are responses to Meyer's apearance accusing her of that.

It's odd that some one like Miranda Yardley, a down to earth, outspoken, Marxist trans woman and Meyer , a glamorous, outspoken, libertarian trans woman both get accused of not being true trans.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page