Its not just a matter of rights....

[Ava5]

...but of also of burdens and safety. On paper, Western women have had equal rights since the 60s, but it's the unequal burdens and unequal physical safety from the violence of the other sex that really weigh them down.

It's good reasoning againsnt all those yelling: "But women already have equal rights! No need for feminism anymore!"

Sorry pressed too soon.

Perhaps it is the term 'raised'?

I'm not disputing, nor going to get into argument about whether looking after children whilst both parents work is more or less detrimental.

There are far too many variables. The quality of the care, the nature of the child, the hours worked, etc.

You and your DH could afford high quality professional care and it worked for you. But that simply isn't the case for many people.

My point is the system is set up so that it's usually the woman who ends up doing it. Unless she can find an alternative. That alternative is rarely the man. Because working hours and business culture is not set up to accommodate it. It's bucking the system.

I was asking for suggestions on how the system can be changed instead of bucked.

Lots of teachers do feel like childminders at times. Sick children sent into school, late pick ups of children - all actively discouraged by teachers and rightly so. I remember the talk when my eldest started school. You were given one chance at being late (pre the days of texting) and if it was continuous then social services were involved. This was in a wealthy and posh area.

Paying someone to mind your children is paying for a service whilst you continue to work. It's a necessity, hence why the fees are expensive.

I read a post a few months ago where the woman went for an interview. The interview panel asked her what sort of plan she had in place should her children be sick.

She said her DH would step in. The panel actually laughed. Before recovering themselves. They thought she was joking.

There are far too many variables. The quality of the care, the nature of the child, the hours worked, etc.

That is completely irrelevant as to whether using paid child care means abdicating responsibility for raising children.

I read a post a few months ago where the woman went for an interview. The interview panel asked her what sort of plan she had in place should her children be sick.

Goodness knows who this employer was but remarks like that will lead straight to a successful discrimination claim even if the candidate was hopeless for other reasons. You are not allowed to ask that.

I haven't got time to read the thread right now, but will later tonight!

But the way I see it is, we now have equal rights but we are lacking equal respect.

We should be able to walk the streets at night without being frightened that we may be attacked, and if we do then there should be no "why was a woman out at night alone" etc.

It's these sort of issues that annoy me.
A friend of mine was actually told he "respects women too much". By a man who goes on dating apps while at work then deletes it every day on his way home to his girlfriend.

Then of course there's the sexual assaults. I'd struggle to find someone that hasn't had their arse grabbed or been leered at.

The first time I was sexually assaulted on the street I was 10 years old, the second I hit puberty. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

That is completely irrelevant as to whether using paid child care means abdicating responsibility for raising children.

Lass. I'm not getting into an argument with you about this. Partly because I am ambivalent about it and probably couldn't argue with much conviction either way.

The reason I am ambivalent is just as I said. Because it depends upon the circumstances.

Responsibility for the child is always down to the parents. Outsourcing child care is something that many people have to do.

So a lot depends upon circumstances. The number of daily hours. Five, twelve? And the quality of care. Is homework outsourced, is bedtime outsourced? Matches, recitals, etc.

Leaving home at 7:30 and arriving back at 7:30, is almost the whole day for a child. And doesn't take into account overnights, business trips, dinners.

Working 9-5pm a mile away from your house, would mean something completely different.

It works for some people. Because they find a workaround.

If you want me to come down hard on an opinion over whether I think it's better for a parent to raise a child rather than the work be outsourced, I would find that tricky.

Partly because I'm not sure the statistics/studies endorse either side of the argument. But also because for some people there is very little choice.

And it is that with which I disagree.

I'd agree with Datun, Lass. My parents did childcare for me when I went back to work when DS was 1 and it did feel like I was handing him over to be raised by them. When I was leaving the house at 7.30 and returning in a rush to pickup, cook him dinner and do bedtime 5 days a a week, it hardly felt like I saw him at all.

They did mealtimes and potty training and a lot of the stuff I felt should be done by one of his parents. I was lucky enough to be in a position where I could quit and when he's older I should be able to go back where I left off, though obviously I won't have the career progression I would have.

I think perhaps the issue I have is the idea using childcare means the child is "raised" by someone else (and that you rarely hear of fathers absolving themselves of raising their children if they go back to work soon after one's born). I was always picked up from school (and nursery before that) by a nanny who sometimes cooked dinner, grandparents helped too at times. My parents still raised (and are raising) me. I've always seen plenty of them and still do; less than if one didn't work but still a lot and they've both always attended every parents' evening and plenty of my sporting fixtures.

I know I'm only reflecting my own circumstances which won't be the same for everyone but having childcare doesn't mean those providing it are the ones raising the children. I know I've never felt I barely saw either of my parents (and they've both always managed to hound me about homework/marks at school so I could probably have done with seeing less of them).

I think it's whenever children are very young that their character is set so I would have major problems with putting my DS into a nurseries locally where the majority of the staff seem to be young girls and women who are paid the minimum wage.

However, most people I talked to thought I was mad for giving up work, even for a few years and couldn't see why I wouldn't. It makes you realise how little valued childcare is.

I'm not sure what age exactly I started nursery but I was at one for at least a year before starting school. Before then I had a nanny during the days, who then took over with my brothers and also picked me up from nursery and school (or grandparents on some days). Not for me to say what impact it's had on my character but my brothers have turned out well, and I've never felt as I said my parents weren't around. I have many lovely memories of doing many things with them (as I still do).

I'm sure many children turn out perfectly fine with their current arrangements. Mine included.

It's not really about the issue over whether outsourcing childcare is good or bad. It's about having a choice.

Because you can bet your life you will never find a man on a forum talking about this.

Because you can bet your life you will never find a man on a forum talking about this.

Indeed. And, (sort of) going back to the original post, this is something I've thought about a few posts on other boards on here, notably those who talk of their husbands not "letting" them do something or whether it's reasonable for them to go for a night out - that on a forum primarily posted on by men I highly doubt there are comparable questions being asked.

NoLoveofMine
I'm not criticising the way your parents raised you or the character of children who go to childcare. I'm sorry if it's came across like that, it's not what I mean. I'm just trying to describe how I feel about it and how unhappy I would be if I felt I had no choice.

It's more the minimum wage and the fact that most of the workers are women that bothers me the most.

Thanks FlaviaAlbia and I know you were talking about yourself and how you felt not me or anyone else. As Datun said choice is vital. My parents did have a choice and chose the right option, not only for them but as it's turned out for us all (my mum is a great role model to me).

I agree on the lack of valuing of childcare whoever carries it out (due to it being associated with women's work) and the need for a more diverse workforce in childcare (and more fathers being SAHPs/primary caregivers).

I find the posts above, with the exception of NoLove's, rather depressing.

I'm not clear what is being suggested- should all parents as soon as they become parents give up paid employment so they can raise their children?

Like NoLove 's parents we employed a nanny who looked after our son in our home. When he was 3 he started junior nursery at the school he would be going to- but that was to give him nursery experience, we still had his nanny. The idea that he was raised by a nanny is simply not correct.

Some children start boarding from prep school age- are children at boarding school raised by the school?

I don't see why Lass. I'm not suggesting everything has to be done in the same way I do or everyone has to feel the way I feel.

It's astonishing how much head space the "wife work" takes up though. I often wonder if this is what prevents women from "leaning in"more. Certainly it's this that takes the biggest toll on me. I was in the unusual position last year to start a new job whilst DD was with her father for two weeks. Now, I still had to cook clean and organise myself and there was the additional mental strain of the new job but I can honestly say that it was like being on holiday not having to think about anyone else. If this is what it's like to be a man then no bloody wonder they're more successful at work (in addition to the head start garnered by their male privilege)

Disappointednomore

It's weighted in favour of men. Women can try and squeeze through the cracks, and do, but it would be revolutionary if the balance tipped.

*Datun
*
But is it possible for us as individuals to bypass this burden?
I didn't want children as I knew the burden would fall to me. Had a child late in life and now find myself a lone parent with a pitiful amount of headspace to dedicate to my career. The only blessing is that I spent my 30s working which now stands me in good stead and I'm quite senior. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that it's the having of children that shafts women. Men appear to have an innate sense of this - many tales of abuse or laziness note the moment it really kicked in was when the woman became pregnant or gave birth. This is the point at which the man sits back in earnest and the woman really is stuck because she wants her child to have good food, clean clothes and a decent home and I believe the man, although he may care, just knows that the woman cares more and will knuckle down regardless of how unfair it is.

I believe the man, although he may care, just knows that the woman cares more and will knuckle down regardless of how unfair it is.

I agree that that is the way it is here. Although from what I understand, the Nordic countries do it better. With a use it or lose it paternity leave policy.

It's having the effect of the men bonding more with the children, which is great, but I also see it as the men acquiring a greater understanding of what has to be done. Why it's necessary, why it takes a long time, and why it's exhausting.

It's not all lolling around in a Calvin Klein advert running through the meadow with our linen clad cherubs giggling delightedly.

I need to read more about it though, to see quite how effective it is.

Because I agree, these roles are super entrenched here. But is it because women care more or because they have to care more?

Indeed. And, (sort of) going back to the original post, this is something I've thought about a few posts on other boards on here, notably those who talk of their husbands not "letting" them do something or whether it's reasonable for them to go for a night out - that on a forum primarily posted on by men I highly doubt there are comparable questions being asked.

Oh trust me, there are - it's very naive to suggest otherwise. My DP was almost driven to suicide by being with a girl for 4 years that didn't let him see friends, family or basically leave the house without him. He couldn't leave and felt trapped because she threatened to kill herself if he left. It was horrific, and because he was a man, he felt he shouldn't complain as all his mates who were like "well you have to make sacrifices with a girlfriend". I told him if he was a woman and told his family this story, they'd be telling him to go to the police. Obviously no-one did, and if he tells anyone now, they see him as a "weak man". It's devastating, and really upsets me when people suggest this doesn't happen to men just as much.

He plays rugby and whenever there's an overnight stay involved in their games or a night out, he mentions how several of his team have to ask their girlfriend's permission or are straight-up not allowed to go. I have actually never heard of this happening to any of my female friends, whereas I know 2 guys at work who have/have had to give up clubbing and going on holidays with friends because of controlling girlfriends. Controlling partners can be male/female equally.

flavia i had a similar experience to you - the childcare I could afford was staffed by young girls, the babies seemed largely ignored and the idea of my baby being there filled me with dread. I have a friend in a high paid job with a brilliant nanny and could I have afforded that I would have gone back to work like a shot. The cost of her nanny would have more than completely eaten up my salary. I wasn't badly paid, but I couldn't afford a nanny where we lived at the time. I wish I'd managed to find a better solution as I miss my career, but we had no family to help and I didn't realise at the time the huge detrimental impact a career break has.

I like the idea that it should be more accepted for both parents to go part-time and to share the parenting equally, but it seems we're pretty far from that in this country.

I like the idea that it should be more accepted for both parents to go part-time and to share the parenting equally

Absolutely! SPL is a really good idea, but it's still not really taken off yet. I'd love to split the maternity/paternity leave 50/50 and then hopefully we'd both go PT/FT at the same time.

SPL hasn't taken off for various reasons I can think of, which I also think means it never will. To me it was an opportunity missed as a policy. I think that a more radical approach would be to have a decent length of concurrent use-it-or-lose-it paternity leave similar to what some Scandinavian countries have.

Yeah, that would be the ideal. Then you wouldn't have to carve up the small amount of time between you.

2 weeks for men really is nothing! If a woman went on maternity leave for only 2 weeks, people would be shocked (I mean, people are still shocked when it's "only" 3 months), so I don't understand how for men it's fine.