Judge - 'women must be careful'- help me argue against my Daily Mail quoting mother argh

[af2000]

I'm not really sure if this is going to make sense.

Having coffee with my mother, grandmother and SIL today and the subject somehow came around to rape and the recent case of an outgoing judge saying that young women need to be 'more careful' (in the context of avoiding getting raped).

They were all saying that they agreed with the judge and that the subsequent outcry about her comments were taken out of context and that she was actually right. I tried to argue that she was not right and that women should not have to 'be more careful' and that it once again came around to the fact that we have an intrinsic culture of victim blaming here, even when we don't think we do. They all dismissed my comments, as usually tends to happen.. they think I am just a ridiculous liberal I think

Can you help me with the argument I was trying to make? But in a more convincing/articulate way. I know what I am getting at but I feel foolish and ganged up against and like my current post pregnancy brain is no longer up to a good bit of debate 😕

Ferrets to you, thank you for your reply. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said.

I also think that women are often put in a very difficult position when it comes to this and we receive so many conflicting messages.

On one hand we are told that we need to take responsibility for our own safety and not put ourselves into risky situations. On the other hand when we do take steps to keep ourselves safe we are labelled paranoid and accused of tarring all men with the same brush.

Again there was a thread on here not long ago where the OP was in a deserted petrol station at night when she was approached by a man asking her to phone him a taxi as his battery had died. The OP felt uneasy about this so she refused. There were people on the thread calling the OP mean, accusing her of tarring all men as potential predators and attackers, asking her how she would feel if the man was her son, etc. I just found it confusing tbh. She felt uneasy about him and the situation and she listened to her instincts so she didn't help him. To me, she was doing what women are always advised to do and that is taking responsibility for her personal safety. I bet you anything that if she had stuck around to help him and he had attacked her then there would be cries of "what did she expect?", "she shouldn't have helped him", "she needs to be more responsible", etc.

There is a very prolific poster on a certain other big forum who praised this judge for her views and agreed that women needed to take steps to reduce their risk of being assaulted and you can't alter rapists behaviour, you can only control your own. Fair enough, that was his opinion.

Except this same poster was also outraged on a different thread about a female only taxi service because it was discriminatory against men and tarring all men as potential attackers and rapists. He has also posted about being hurt and offended when women cross the street if he is walking behind them at night, again because it tars all men with the same brush as potential predators.

I can't be the only one completely and by this?

im going to be giving my son the advice that he should never get into any situation where he could possibly be accused of rape.
I think thats probably what we should be focusing on instead of telling girls not to drink or go out alone.
This makes it seem like men are natural rapists or something. Like there are always going to be loads of men waiting to rape you once you are drunk enough.
Thing is there are probably always going to be some absolute mentalists who brutally rape women.
The thing thats more common though is these cases where a man takes advantage of a woman in a way that he can justify to himself or cover up easily.
Thats something that can change. You cant do anything about people going insane, murderers rapists etc. That will probably always happen but its actually very rare.
The common cases are actually about a culture that tells guys that having sex with as many women as possible is a way to be super masculine. That tells them that being pushy is masculine. That teaches them that if a woman doesnt say no then its fine, and not that they should in fact be looking for actual consent and enthusiasm.
That we could tackle as a society. But we arent going to tackle it if people keep saying that the emphasis should be on a woman to protect herself because that feeds into the culture that allows men to justify this sort of behaviour to themselves.

I think @ItsNeverSunnyInWales has it. Rapists will just rape someone else. They might choose someone vulnerable through drink now, but they could choose someone based on situation, disability, age, proximity. They're rapists. They won't magically stop because women don't drink.

Profilic.

In almost every other crime the fact the victim was drunk is an aggravating factor.

If your handbag or wallet is stolen when you are drunk I think society has more contempt for the perpetrator as they are so clearly taking advantage of the victim.

But being too drunk to know what you are doing puts you at all sorts of risks.

It certainly seems to. Men need to be aware that they may rape someone if they become drunk. This could lead to lengthy prison sentences (ideally). Why are they not more cautious about their own welfare?

From Alcohol Concern:

A fifth (29%) of all violent incidents in 2013–14 took place in or around a pub or club. This rises to 42% for stranger violence.
Over two thirds (68%) of violent offences occur in the evening or at night
Victims believed the offender(s) to be under the influence of alcohol in over half (53%) of all violent incidents, or 704,000 offences

Looks like drinking might be pretty bad for you.

No of course they won't stop, and sadly there is a disproportionate number of sex workers and other vulnerable women that are raped, attacked and murdered because they regularly are in high risk situations so the chances of it happening are higher. It's odd though because there are other people- bank/ money security guards spring to mind- who also 'choose' to work in a high-risk environment and yet when they get robbed and shot no one says 'they should never have put themselves in that position, it was totally predictable that they might get robbed and shot'

it would be really interesting to know what proportion of reported rapes happen to women who are drunk and how that compares to being the victim of any other sort of crime.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the difficulty of getting a conviction if a woman is very drunk/drugged- even if the police are confident her story is true the case won';t go to court if the defence can just cast doubt on her evidence. I don't know what way there is around that.

It really is telling when drunk women are compared to unlocked houses.

Drunk men are probably responsible for a lot of physical assaults, drunk driving, robberies, criminal damage as well as rape so maybe we should ban men from drinking alcohol.

" even if the police are confident her story is true the case won';t go to court if the defence can just cast doubt on her evidence. I don't know what way there is around that."
Good point. And it's a cycle thwn - drink women are more likely to be attacked as men know they're a lot more likely to get away with it.

Certainly, only allowing responsible men over 35 the option to be licenced to drink alcohol would reduce crime and violence.

They'd be more careful about what Mr Penis gets up to if we reversed the presumption of innocence in rape cases and made men have to prove that they had consent for sex if a question arose.

FerretsAreFeminists

Excellent posts. Sometimes just spelling it out in the way you have draws all the points together.

Rapists shouldn't rape, theives shouldn't steal, murderers should kill but they do. There are monsters out there and always will be.

I see nothing wrong in being asked to take responsibly for my own safety. It's not victim blaming, it's ensuring that your not putting yourself directly in harms way.

Do you not teach your children about stranger danger? Tell your sons and daughters to be safe on nights out? Lock your doors at night?

Rape seems to be the only crime in which if we dare to educate people in how to keep safe or minimise risk we get accused of victim blaming.

Drives me nuts!

Ferrets - wow, you are so right

Here's the thing; I know fine well that if he hadn't raped me but had assaulted me physically another way instead then I would have had no problem going downstairs to my family and saying "Wtf, x has just punched me in the face!". I would have probably had no qualms about going to the police either.

this 100%

(please dont think i am being goady) what stopped you from saying he raped you? Was it a 'shame' thing? or a 'you thought you would be blamed thing'

i've long thought that victims of rape, and child abuse often don't talk about their experiences, or try to hide them due to 'shame' - which is so wrong, its not the victims fault, its the arsehole who did it to them

Rapists shouldn't rape, theives (sic) shouldn't steal, murderers should (sic) kill but they do. There are monsters out there and always will be.

While what they do might be monstrous, rapists aren't monsters, they're just men. .

I see nothing wrong in being asked to take responsibly for my own safety. It's not victim blaming, it's ensuring that your (sic) not putting yourself directly in harms way.

No, it merely ensures that someone else is raped, and then the onus will be on them to show why they didn't "deserve it" in the highly unlikely event that it goes to court.

Do you not teach your children about stranger danger?

Honestly? No, I taught them about consent, being able to say no to anyone, and that I would always listen and take them seriously. Most children are not harmed by strangers, but by people known and trusted by their family. In the same way as most women are raped by people they know and trust.

Tell your sons and daughters to be safe on nights out?

Yes, but in the context that people who are drunk tend to do daft things like walk into roads or believe they can fly. Not in the context that if they don't drink, the boogie man won't get them.

Lock your doors at night?

This example always interests me. How do you suggest women lock their orifices up, because that's the only way this analogy works.

Rape seems to be the only crime in which if we dare to educate people in how to keep safe or minimise risk we get accused of victim blaming.

Given that most rapes are perpetrated by men we know, take place when the women are sober and wearing everyday clothes, exactly how much risk limitation do you think happens by telling women that if they don't get drunk they won't get themselves raped? Telling women they won't be raped if they're sober and dressed like nuns is not only incorrect, it's magical thinking. Rape also seems to be one of the few crimes where the victim has to prove they are actually a victim, but I see you have nothing to say about that.

Drives me nuts!

Sorry about that.

Telling women they won't be raped if they're sober and dressed like nuns is not only incorrect, it's magical thinking.

Indeed. If I believed being dressed like a nun would keep me safe, I'd order a nun's habit tomorrow.

But there's zero proof, or even indication, that a piece of cloth will magically prevent a man who wants to rape away from you.

Sure, if he's just looking for any victim, he might rape a drunk girl in a miniskirts instead.(In which case you didn't prevent rape, you just made sure it hit someone else)
But if it's not your lucky day, perhaps he has dirty fantasies about nuns and targets you because you are dressed like a nun.

Perhaps the rapist wants to rape you because you are too assertive. Or he targets you because you are timid and seem like easy prey.

Perhaps he rapes you because you wear trousers and sensible shoes and this offends him.

If you don't want to be robbed, the only thing you have to do is to appear as though you don't have money, and the likelihood of you getting robbed will be decreased.

If you don't want to be raped, the only thing that would help would to make it appear as if you don't have a vagina. Which is not something most women can do.

(In which case you didn't prevent rape, you just made sure it hit someone else)

i'm sorry - but this is an abhorrent view YOU didnt make it hit someone else, YOU stopped it hitting you - this is worse than victim blaming

Joe Biden Tells College Men: “A Woman Who’s Dead Drunk Cannot Consent. You Are Raping Her.”

If we judge a sexual assault victim on whether they drink, we may as well declare rape legal

Telling women to be careful is essentially saying "try to reduce the chances of it being you who gets raped". It does nothing to tackle rape or address the real issue - rapists. It sees rape as inevitable and doesn't seek to prevent rape, more tells women to try to prevent being raped themselves (which is impossible anyway), whilst feeding into rape myths.

I see nothing wrong in being asked to take responsibly for my own safety. It's not victim blaming, it's ensuring that your not putting yourself directly in harms way.

How can a woman do that, then? Never leave the house or live with any man, ever?

But I personally don't think drinking til I would be unable to give consent is a good position to put myself in anyhow, my phone may get stolen - it would not be my fault, I may be attacked, again not my fault, I may be raped or murdered - again not my fault.

BUT I know - for me - that I am personally safer and more mentally aware and able to run (from whatever situation) if I don't drink lots - so I don't.

The problem with this, IMO, is not really what the judge said (in context) as such but how we as a society have the unfortunate tendency to frame rape in a different manner than other crimes.

It's absolutely advisable (and, generally speaking, not sexist as such) for people to take reasonable precautions against falling victim to a crime and/or misfortune. Depending on where you live and who you are, this may include not getting totally shit-faced and walking home alone, locking your front door or double-checking business propositions before entering into an agreement. Nothing horrible about that at all.

The actual problem, of course, is that rape is (almost) unique in that it is widely framed as a crime that is somewhat inevitable on the perpetrator's side, i.e. that it's something that victims are capable of causing via a lack of caution as opposed to a decision the rapist actively makes, and that a non-cautious victim therefore bears some of the blame. Now, that of course is wildly sexist (against men as well as women, FWIW; all the men I know possess basic self-control).