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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Different feminism?

16 replies

PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 00:39

Hi :) pretty new here and was just wondering what the difference was with certain terms I'd seen (lib fem, rad fem, 2nd wave etc)? Obviously I know what these words are but not sure about the different areas(?) of feminism, and was wondering whether anyone could explain for me? I was just always under the impression that there was simple feminism - someone fighting for the empowerment and equality of women in society.

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PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 00:39

Simply*

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Felicity91 · 03/05/2017 00:49

Google is your friend if you genuinely wish to read up on this. No need to demand someone else spoon feed it to you here...

PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 00:50

felicity bloody hell there is so much hate on here sometimes. God forbid i ask for information on a FORUM!!! I was unaware that my polite request would be perceived as "demanding someone spoon feed me"... Wow

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Felicity91 · 03/05/2017 00:56

On the contrary, no hate, where? MN is a very fair and tolerant forum. But if we conclude that actually, biological women are more female than non-transitioned men that 'identify' as us. Sorry, but we'll defend ourselves here. To claim your a woman but still have a penis doesn't wash.

PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 00:58

What the hell are you talking about???

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PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 01:00

I asked on this post about different types of feminism. You replied with a sarcastic remark.
On another thread you wanted to start an argument because I simply asked for some figures about the claims made. I have never said I agree or disagree with your opinions on trans women so really don't know why you're making assumptions about what I believe.

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SylviaPoe · 03/05/2017 01:02

Okay, I'm confused because I didn't think this was a trans thread. Have I missed something?

I might not be good at describing different kinds of feminism, but I'd start by saying that feminism is about advocating for the rights of women rather than equality particularly.

PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 01:05

Sylvie it isn't!!! Felicity seems to have some sort of problem with me. I actually have no idea why.
Thanks for your reply. I think I just didn't realise there were different waves or different types of feminism really. I know I can ask Professor Google, but enjoy hearing people's opinions first hand and thought a forum would be the best place to find out :)

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Lochan · 03/05/2017 01:07

Felicity it isn't generally considered polite on MN to drag arguments from one thread into another.

Lochan · 03/05/2017 01:09

Queenie

You may find this new thread helpful:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2916897-anyone-fancy-joining-a-mumsnet-feminist-book-club

PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 01:11

Ahh fab Lochan thank you! :)

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SylviaPoe · 03/05/2017 01:15

Radical feminism looks more at restructuring society and improving things for women as a class, and the way men benefit from this as a class. It looks more at issues that happen in the private sphere, like the treatment of women in relationships. Liberal feminism is looking for legal ways to remove discrimination against women, often so that individual women can more forward.

But most feminists are not either of these two kinds of feminist particularly, but hold feminist beliefs within the context of their other beliefs, socialism, conservatism etc.

Felicity91 · 03/05/2017 07:59

Very sorry. I've no idea what I was talking about either :/

Sorry to all.

Tartle · 03/05/2017 09:05

I suppose that the main difference in philosophy that is causes the split between the two groups is their assessment of why women are discriminated against and oppressed.

I am going to explain this very poorly but:

Lib Fem: women are discriminated against and have their choices and autonomy limited in a patriarchal society (why? because they are women? Because patriarchy? I feel like I used to know this but it now escapes me!) feminism is about creating equality of opportunity for women to participate in society on the same basis as men. It is about empowering individuals and validating women's choices. It can become a sort of philosophy where anything a woman does is feminist because she is a woman and she chooses it. Generally believes in intersectionality in a way that creates hierarchies of oppressions and believes that trans women are women because they identify as such and have the same or worse problems as women. Believes that pornography and sex work can be empowering for women if that individual chooses. Believes that sex and gender are not the same and that gender is about how you present yourself and is changeable based on your inner feelings. Believes in subverting gender by being gnc, non binary or trans.

Rad Fem

Borrows a lot from Marxist class analysis. Believes that women as a class are oppressed by men as a class because of their biology. Because men want to control women's sexual, emotional and reproductive labour.

Believes that choice is an illusion within an oppressive societal structure because it ignores the ways in which women's choices are limited by the structures of a patriarchal society. Believes that porn and sex work are inherently violent against women and exploitative.

Believes that sex and gender are different but views gender as a hierarchy with men on top and women on the bottom. Believes that women are conditioned from birth to take the subservient and care taking position in the hierarchy so that men can utilise their labour. Believes that the only differences between men and women is biological fact (that women bear children) but reject the idea that women are inherently more submissive, caregiving, like makeup, dolls and high heels because they are women.

Reject the idea that men can become women because they identify with femininity as they understand that the source of women's oppression is biology.

2nd wave refers to the women's lib movement of the 1970s and is generally used as a synonym for rad fem although not all second wavers were rad fem.

3rd wave refers to the current feminist movement since maybe the mid-late 90s? It is often used as a synonym for lib fem.

The thing is that liberal feminism is easy. You can pretty much do what you want as long as you can think of a way to justify it and it doesn't discriminate against anyone else. Rad fem is much scarier as you really have to analyse your choices and realise how much they are affected by patriarchy and your socalisation.

I recently had a bit of a lightbulb moment and made the switch but I am not particularly well informed or well read which is why I started the book club thread. Come and join us!

DJBaggySmalls · 03/05/2017 09:18

There are basically 2 types of feminism;

Liberal feminism - seeks equality for women by asking for changes in the law.
Radical feminism - Radical means 'root'. Radical feminists seek to change society to remove the obstacles to women.

The difference in thinking is shown neatly by thisillustration;
Panel 1 shows the patriarchal system, which has inequalities designed in.
Panel 2 shows the liberal answer.
Panel 3 shows the answer designed from a radical perspective. It involves lateral thinking.

The first wave feminists were the original suffragettes.

Second wave feminists ''drew attention to domestic violence and marital rape issues, establishment of rape crisis and battered women's shelters, and changes in custody and divorce law.''
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism

Rebecca Walker coined the term "Third Wave" to highlight the focus on queer and non-white women.
Kimberlé Crenshaw described intersectionality.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberl%C3%A9_Williams_Crenshaw

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
Third wave feminists are not automatically anti pornography, and see it as empowering women. Radical feminists prefer the Nordic model which keep prostitution illegal.
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Fourth wave feminism is so inclusive and liberal it has no clear direction and doesnt know what it is for.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-wave_feminism

Different feminism?
PirateQueenie · 03/05/2017 13:52

Wow thanks, both of those responses really helped me understand a bit better, and I think I know where I would fall in relation to those categories, although still a newbie and have a lot of reading to do!
Thanks for both answering very fairly and in a non-bias way :) appreciated

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