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Original poster

Tax credits rape clause

37 replies

WankingMonkey · 26/04/2017 16:36

I don't know where else to put this but I am actually feeling sick after reading this. 8 page form detailing the exact circumstances of the rape...no doubt will be turned round to be the womans fault also...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pmqs-live-general-election-theresa-may-rape-clause-law-about-fairness-victims-debate-jereny-corbyn-a7703181.html

And the comments below, mostly about how women always claim rape when its false and such.

My heart goes out to anyone affected by this. Its bad enough it happens to you without having to sit through grillings to see if someone (who probably isn't even trained) 'believes' you or not. No doubt these people 'assessing' the 'truth' will be the likes of ATOS, the companies who cure terminal illnesses in seconds.

Not sure what I want to discuss. I just wanted to put this SOMEWHERE. I hope to god this is taken back as it is just sick and cruel.

OP posts:
BetsyM00 · 26/04/2017 18:49

It's shocking isn't it? There is a petition if anyone would like to sign:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/195077

Not sure if it's because of the Sturgeon/Davidson conflict over this issue but most of the signatories (so far) seem to be Scottish.

BetsyM00 · 26/04/2017 18:50

Oh, and I'm not sure how it's actually going to be implemented as an organisation such as Women's Aid was proposed as the third party adjudicators - but they have refused to become involved.

Polidori · 26/04/2017 21:53

I would imagine very few victims of rape will actually fill in this form. It's a way of denying these women the exemption while being able to say "well we gave them the chance". And what provision is there for women who are victims if control or coercion and still live with their abusers? Are they to say to their partners "yes we still get the CB because I told them you have been taking me"?
The whole thing is a disgrace, a vile Tory manoeuvre to yet again victimise women and children.

Polidori · 26/04/2017 21:54

*raping

venusinscorpio · 26/04/2017 22:17

It's a way of denying these women the exemption while being able to say "well we gave them the chance".

Totally.

Xenophile · 26/04/2017 22:39

The way it was implemented was wholly unfair and underhand. They didn't consult with any of the major charities that operate in the UK, so who did they consult with carefully? The majority of people this will affect will be working families and because of it, women who are perceived as being of the social group that might need to claim these benefits who has a third child will be looked upon as a scrounger and their child a child of rape.

There are no positives to this at all. Apart from the government might save a few bob in order to mitigate the worst economic crash the country will ever experience in 2019 for their equally well off friends.

DJBaggySmalls · 26/04/2017 23:17

I cant imagine how any rape victim would want to fill int the form as it would inform their third child they were conceived by rape.
Apparently there's a backlash against the clause from Catholics, who wont be told to use birth control as its against their religion. Thats one aspect I didnt think of when I heard of it.

HelenaDove · 27/04/2017 02:38

This is a good summary of this sickening clause.

www.redonline.co.uk/red-women/news-in-brief/why-the-case-against-repugnant-rape-clause-must-be-heard

HelenaDove · 27/04/2017 02:46

Oh wow that didnt occur to me either Baggy.........the Catholic angle.

Polidori Ive said this many times before on here and elsewhere but there needs to be some kind of awareness campaign about reproductive coercion.

Because the lack of understanding and wilful ignorance i see around these issues is appalling.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 27/04/2017 16:17

Apparently there's a backlash against the clause from Catholics, who wont be told to use birth control as its against their religion. Thats one aspect I didnt think of when I heard of it

Catholics are not being told to use contraception. Catholics are being told that they will not get certain tax credits and benefits for a 3rd child. There are arguments which can be put up against this proposal but this one is irrelevant.

justnowords · 27/04/2017 16:31

Sadly, i think this is an issue than many men and women are happy to turn a blind eye to in order to keep in line with their politics, i assume because they are assured it will never happen to them. The best one yet i've heard is that rape victims shouldnt even get the option of discretionary payments. They can get an abortion or accept being in financial dire straits like anyone else who chooses to have a third child. Personally i think that is a disgusting attitude.

LilacMarin19 · 27/04/2017 23:53

The thing is, I know women who are scummy enough to do exactly that - claim they were raped so that they can get TC for a 3rd child. There are some vile women out there who will do it. There are women out there who would milk the system for anything it is worth. Whether it is fair to subject all women who have been raped to this ordeal for the possible actions of a minority is debateble though.

Unfortunately, as with any crime, you have to have evidence to convict someone. As a rape-victim who never went to the police, I would not expect to be able to turn around and say "so and so raped me" without any evidence of the attack, the same way I can't accuse someone of breaking into my home without evidence of them doing so. That's just the way the law works.

LilacMarin19 · 27/04/2017 23:57

It's a very problematic thing, either we believe all women who say they were raped... or we withold judgement until we have evidence that supports the claim. There's no in between.

HelenaDove · 28/04/2017 00:03

"Inside the online community of men who remove condoms without consent"

Apparently its called "stealthing" BASTARDS!

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/inside-the-online-community-of-men-who-preach-removing-condoms-without-consent_us_58f75eb2e4b05b9d613eb997?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

MsMims · 28/04/2017 00:13

Saw this in the news and felt sick.

Lilac I disagree. Evidence, or lack of, doesn't mean a rape victim cannot state what happened to them as fact. It's not an accusation, it's a fact. Whether there's evidence, a conviction or nothing at all doesn't change that fact.

LilacMarin19 · 28/04/2017 00:21

Mims - It is only a statement of fact if it is true, if not it is a false accusation. If we accept all rape claims as facts then that goes against everything I have ever been taught about law. Yes, had I gone to the police then I would be stating a fact that a rape happened to me - but if I had no evidence then how can I expect everybody else to treat it as fact and not an accusation?

PencilsInSpace · 28/04/2017 08:49

The forms don't actually need much detail at all. The woman writes the name of the child and signs, then the third party ticks the appropriate boxes and signs. The forms and guidance are here.

It's still a disgraceful policy though. Another issue is that in Northern Ireland the third parties often have a duty to inform the police if a woman discloses abuse. That will understandably put a lot of women off.

PencilsInSpace · 28/04/2017 09:02

Rubbish Lilac. One of the ways of getting this exemption without having to use the form is if you have received criminal injuries compensation for rape. Criminal injuries compensation can be paid to victims without there being any conviction, prosecution or even arrest of a suspect. It can be paid even if you have no clue as to the identity of your attacker, as long as you have reported to the police and cooperated with any investigation.

MsMims · 28/04/2017 10:53

Lilac you specifically said

'As a rape-victim who never went to the police, I would not expect to be able to turn around and say "so and so raped me" without any evidence of the attack'

The first four words being key. A rape victim. You didnt mention a false accuser, so not sure what relevance your reply has.

DJBaggySmalls · 28/04/2017 10:58

LilacMarin19 Its not your job to provide evidence. You might not have any at all. Its a shame that you work in law but dont have any contact with Rape Crisis. They could set you straight on a few things.

LilacMarin19 · 28/04/2017 18:28

What I'm trying to say is I wouldn't expect people to believe me just because I said I was raped. I don't see why they should believe my word because I could very well be lying. I'm just commenting on this idea I've heard lately that all rape victims should be believed full stop, which is a load of crap imo. Therefore, I see no issue with this form. Yes, you don't need a conviction to get this exemption and that's a good thing. I was talking about the idea that every person should be believed just because it came from their mouth. That means I could accuse someone right now and have people believe me with no evidence? It doesn't seem right to me and I thought it was innocent until proven guilty. Unless I personally had a rape-kit done after the event I probably wouldn't even bother going to the police as why should they believe me with no proof a crime has happened?

The form itself doesn't require much, I'm just not sure why it's so disgusting. They aren't asking you to get a conviction and do a rape-kit, it's just a few tick boxes?

LilacMarin19 · 28/04/2017 18:30

DJ

I wouldn't need evidence for this form no.

But if I wanted a criminal conviction surely I need evidence of some kid that something happened to me? Confused.

LilacMarin19 · 28/04/2017 18:31

*some kind

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 28/04/2017 18:36

I think what seems to be being overlooked, and what makes this clause even more disturbing, is that women can only claim for their third child if they are a product of non-consensual sex and if they are not still living with the father of the child.

Because as absolutely no evidence ever shows, it's so very easy for women in coercive relationships to escape those relationships Hmm

From the article linked to earlier:

"Furthermore, a woman may not claim the additional benefits if she lives with the other parent of the child, a policy which effectively undermines the very principle of coercion. The message here is loud and clear – if you fail to escape your abuser, you are somehow complicit or even responsible."

venusinscorpio · 28/04/2017 18:40

It is indeed, theonlylivingboy.