Good Housekeeping - perfect example of sexism leading to trans...

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As early as 18 months old, Kimberly Shappley's son started showing signs he identified as female. Now, the Christian mom shares how she learned to embrace Kai's transition — for her child's happiness and safety.
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I was raised as a devout, conservative Christian with strong Republican values in the South.

... at 18 months old, Kai began exhibiting very strong female characteristics. From the moment my child was born, everything about Kai was geared toward femininity. She would pull T-shirts down around her waist to make them into skirts. She would tie long-sleeved shirts around her head and pretend like it was long hair. I tried so hard to force her into wearing clothes with camouflage and superhero patterns, and I even gave her severe, flat-top haircuts. Kai has three other siblings who are boys, so it was also a very testosterone-filled family environment, which I thought might help. Everything was fishing and spitting and boy stuff.
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As I continued to watch my child developing, my friend started pointing out red flags that there was something very real going on. She told me that Kai being transgender may be something I needed to consider. (Friend is a child psychologist FGS!)
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By the time Kai was 3 1/2 years old, I couldn't ignore it anymore.
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There were spankings and yelling matches and endless prayers. I even contacted the daycare Kai attended and asked them to put away every single "girl" toy.
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I started reaching out to more professionals, including a child psychiatrist who asked me, "If you and Kai were on a deserted island, would you let her wear girls' clothes?'" I said, "Probably." The psychiatrist told me it wasn't God I had a problem with, but what other people would think of my child and me. Yes, because gendered clothes are made up bollox! Ditto gender roles! Massive lack of critical thinking
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With all of that, when Kai turned 4, I finally let her transition.

Just coming back to this. I've been thinking for a long time that it would be such a good thing if we could just break down all this stereotypes saying what girls/boys can and can't wear, do and be. I mean I know that's obvious in a way and what feminism is all about, but it would surely also be really good for transgender people- that is genuine, gender dysphoric, really unhappy in own body transgender.

If there were no stereotypes 'rules' then all children would grow up feeling free to explore their own personality and express themselves in their own way- long hair, buzz cut, jeans, heels, make-up, power tools, whatever.

It seems like feminists and TRAs should be asking for the same thing- an end to rigid gender role expectations - and I find it so frustrating that TRAs are actively trying to reinforce gender roles.
Bit off-topic there but that story really got to me- the poor child, being told that his personality was unacceptable in a male, so he had to become she. Yes, he might eventually have come to that decision himself if left to be himself, but he was forced down that route.

See this is what I've been thinking about the trans issue for a while now.

I'm not as well read as most here. But initially, a couple of years ago when it all started taking off, I was very accepting of those brave enough to decide that being trans and dealing with the prejudice that goes with it. You know, the genuinely body dysphoric.

Then, reading about the ideas about MTT people wanting participation in women's events, access to women's spaces (I'm still not sure what I think about that one), etc made me question myself.

And more recently this is what I've been thinking. Feeling like one is transgender, I.e. the wrong gender is based on gendered expectations of behaviour.

I saw the clip about the trans ballerina the other day. She said "men can't be ballarinas" - I thought no, don't they call them "ballarinos"? And her mannerisms when she got the results of her dance exam . Like a pantomime.

Remember when transvestism was talked about thanks to Eddie Izzard in the 90s. Even then I thought "dress like a woman?" Looked at myself "what, in jeans and a t shirt?" (But I liked Eddie's ideas - he liked to wear those clothes but still do running, jumping, climbing trees!)

Surely it's a bit of a fetishisation of gender expectations?

I like "boy" stuff. I don't like "feminine" clothes or make up or nails or that shit. I like science and engineering etc. But that doesn't make me any particular gender. Imagine if my parents had taken the same tack as those in the article?!.

I see a similar 'something's wrong' approach all the time at baby groups where every little thing is a sign of autism. It's just babies doing baby stuff - exploring what their bodies can do, figuring out the world but a lot of parents are convinced it's an early sign of autism. I think it comes from a lack of understanding of what babies are like.

Obviously the idea that a baby could show signs of being trans is based on a very gendered set of expectations, but also imagines that they have a concept of gender. My daughter is 1.5 and doesn't understand the idea of 'later' properly. How anyone thinks she has a gender identity I don't know - without a full understanding of past and future there can't be an idea of the 'self' surely?

I saw that trans ballet dancing ex racing driver story too. There was a horrible subtext of ballet being only for girls, and motorsport only being for boys. A complete false dichotomy, it's even perfectly possible to enjoy both, as a man or a woman.

If he'd have had better encouragement as a child, he could have grown up to be a really good male dancer and even turned professional. However, I suspect there might be a bit of retconning of his story going on; I've read quite a bit about this from parents' point of view and trans teens will often claim they've always had "opposite sex" interests which they have been deliberately denied, when this isn't always true.

I'm sure there's more to this story that has yet to come out.

No mention of the father?

And the mother is now speaking on behalf of transgender rights. She is demanding her child use the toilets of their preferred gender, despite being offered a gender neutral option.

And seriously, what parent spanks their child for wanting to play with toys considered stereotypical of the opposite sex?

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733511/amp/Evangelical-mother-fights-Texas-school-district-transgender-daughter-not-allowed-use-girls-bathroom-kindergarten.html

I understand the Ballet Dancer thing - I was a girl, therefore, like all the other girls, I went to Ballet at the village hall when I was little. There were no boys. We seem to be about the same age, so I get that parents of that time might have said that.

If any wants to head off and take ballet lessons, it's really no skin of anyone's nose - assuming sex-based changing rooms are respected. We all know he'll never be a ballerina, as most women can't be - it's a specific body type, and no-one would be able to do the lifts. But going to lessons, unless he's perving (and it seems he just really wants to dance, so he probably isn't) I can't see there's any issue with it.

WTF? They spank the poor boy for playing with dolls and then are surprised when he says he wants to be a girl? (Did he even say that, or did they just force hiim to transition or be punished for his interests?)

It quite reminds me or Iran - homosexuality is illegal, but if you trans then being same-sex attracted is okay ... as long as you aren't same-gender attracted.

I am completely against transitioning children and to be honest think that adult transition is harmful too BUT my experience is that a childhood obsession with playing and presenting as the opposite sex can be a sign of body dismorphia, or transgenderism... Not sure of correct language.

My cousin is transgender. He began transition at 24. As a little boy he would always be the Princess in our make believe games, he was Princess Peach when we played Mario Karts and spent hours drawing beautiful blonde women in ballgowns. It drove his sister mad because she never got to be 'the princess', although most of the time she was more of a tomboy anyway and happy to be the pirate Queen.

When he was a teenager he came out as gay and it wasn't until he was in his twenties that he identified as trans. Looking back it makes a lot of sense for his narrative but I believe that it isn't that he wants to be a woman, but that he wants to be the beautiful, vulnerable and protected princess.

Anyway the point I am making in a round about way is that sometimes the playing with girl toys is a sign of something more serious than normal play.

Anyway the point I am making in a round about way is that sometimes the playing with girl toys is a sign of something more serious than normal play.

Yes, sometimes, gender non-conforming children grow up to be feminists. Or homosexual. Or both! Or maybe they just stay gender-non-conforming as adults!
But no normal parent would consider that a problem.

Parents who demand that their son be kept away from "girl toys" and spank him if he plays with them, are most likely very worried that he could turn out to be gay, or that his gender non-conformity could persist to adulthood.
Transing him is what they consider to be the "cure" for this problem.

Yes, Vestal I agree that spanking and bullying a child is horrible and also nothing wrong in a child that is gender non conforming or gay.

But I still think in my cousins case and in probably other children that obsessive play in a gender non conforming way is a symptom of something wrong. I remember as a child being uncomfortable because if my cousin couldn't be the princess or if his drawing didn't turn out right he would become majorly distressed in a way that didn't happen when our other games had hiccups. This wasnt lighthearted play, it was like a coping mechanism that gradually escalated to transition and is still accompanied by depression and suicidal thoughts even with a supportive family and workplace and a loving partner.

I also played as boys and with cars, dinosaurs and action men and grew up to be a feminist. So nothing wrong in nonconformity, same as there is nothing wrong in exercise but obsessive exercise is a symptom of eating disorders.

I remember as a child being uncomfortable because if my cousin couldn't be the princess or if his drawing didn't turn out right he would become majorly distressed in a way that didn't happen when our other games had hiccups.

Ah. Okay, now I understand why you think his play predicted the later problems. But that's not the gender-non-conforming play that was the problem, then, but his obsession with everything having to be like he wanted it to be.
I would be just as worried if a boy threw a tantrum because he couldn't be the cop or the noble knight in a roleplay game. Or destroyed the board of a boardgame because he lost the game.

And most people would likely consider a little girl who always wants to be the princess in play an entitled brat and demand that her parents tell her to put other children first ... at least that's my impression from reading threads on mumsnet about little girls who expressed any kind of preference in their playing with other children.

But I still think in my cousins case and in probably other children that obsessive play in a gender non conforming way is a symptom of something wrong.

From what I have read, I do believe there is something more than non-conformity going on. There was a transwoman on another thread who said he was basically an effeminate gay man, but has identified as transgender because it seems to fit society's expectations better. I think even gay men can be a little uncomfortable with overly effeminate gays.

So you could have a boy who wanted to present in an excessively feminine way. Or you could have a boy who had gender dysphoria. Or both. But of course, neither of these things mean they're women.

I'm interested in your take on your cousin littlejeopardy. You say he is still distressed and suicidal. Do you see other mental health issues?

I believe fragile mental health is very common amongst transpeople. They would assert that it's because they have no support and are discriminated against, but I'm not buying that as the sole reason.

To my mind, it would be really, really useful to find out why there are some trans-people, particularly transwomen, who have the exact same story that they just knew. I think you can quite easily tell the ones who are hijacking that narrative for their own warped ends. But there is no doubt that some truly feel there was something internal going on.

Disgust with your genitalia, which would mean you had gender dysphoria, wouldn't automatically mean that you are desperate to adopt femininity. Unless it's because there is no alternative.

I did ask a transwoman, fairly young I believe, that if there were say four different sexes, would they feel they could pick any one of them as long as it wasn't male.

But he never came back on, so I didn't get an answer.

I did ask a transwoman, fairly young I believe, that if there were say four different sexes, would they feel they could pick any one of them as long as it wasn't male.

That's a strange question. After all, if there were four sexes, there would not be a male sex!
(Though I don't think he'd have pointed that out. Would have been interesting to know what his answer would have been)

Fucking hell. If my parents had thought like this my brother and me would have both been transitioned as children. As it is my brother, who as a child had a lovely yellow blanket that he wrapped around his head to make long blonde hair is a perfectly happy camp gay man. I'm a perfectly happy bisexual woman who happens to enjoy some stereotypically male hobbies and I wear a variety of masculine/feminine clothing.

I'm interested in your take on your cousin littlejeopardy. You say he is still distressed and suicidal. Do you see other mental health issues?

Yes, in some ways it's lessened and she says she is much happier now that she has transitioned but she does suffer from anxiety (in my opinion, no official diagnosis s far as I know). She won't go out in public alone and feels that everyone is talking about her when she enters a room.

As a teenager he would also panic and would be unable to leave the house if his hair wasnt right. He also says he self talks horrible things about himself. I don't know if that still happens.

Please excuse the mixed pronouns, I try to use female ones for the present but I slip into male ones when talking about the pre-transition life.

She won't go out in public alone and feels that everyone is talking about her when she enters a room.

Is this not narcissism? Or possibly paranoia, even?

I was thinking about this yesterday. When I was younger I would not leave the house without full make up. My sister-in-law used to inspect each of her eyelashes individually when she was a teenager. One of my sons faffs about with his hair like there's no tomorrow. I did point out that whoever he meets is going to be far more worried about his reaction to them, rather than theirs to him. It made no difference. But as he's got older he's loosened up. It's a typical teenage thing.

VestalVirgin

I was trying to produce some self analysis. I wanted to know whether they just wanted to be 'not male' rather than 'be female'.

I have yet to see a transwoman who comes across as female in any way. The gay ones come across as gay and the straight ones come across as misogynists.

But I still think in my cousins case and in probably other children that obsessive play in a gender non conforming way is a symptom of something wrong.

I think just the obsessive play part was the symptom, rather than it being gender non-conforming. If a girl was behaving like that would it have been ok?

There is a growing body of evidence that links transgenderism to autism. Rigid ideas and obsessive play may suggest something along this line?
The autism link is especially strong with female to trans teenagers.