Do you think it is necessary to have good analytical and critical thinking skills be a feminist?

[QuentinSummers]

Lots of current "feminist" thinking seems not feminist at all and I wondered if it's because people are not abe to apply critical thinking skills to arguments like "Any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice".
Wondered what you all thought?

Are you reading the same thread?

If that's directed at me then yes.

Is there something I've posted that you'd like clarified ?

". I find it alienating that so many posters on here are willing to write off liberal feminists on the untruths that liberal feminism is all about choice and is supportive of trans ideology."

Well, certainly I have not read or heard anything that would make me think differently to this.

Nice to see FWR going down the tired old path that there's a correct theory of feminism and that it happens to be radical feminism.
That's isn't how I read the thread at all.
The feminist theory that is discussed is generally through the lens of radical or liberal feminism from white women and rarely is there a different view heard this is a tired line trotted out to get women to STFU. How would you know what ethnicity anyone is on the Internet?

Why is it necessary to be a radical or a liberal feminist to have an opinion on issues which affect women and/ or society in general ?

( I was going to write "identify as ...but I'm beginning to find "identify as.. rather tedious)

That surprises me, Bert.

Liberal feminism certainly aims for choice to be something that women have but it's pretty fundamental to the exercise of choice that it's only valid if it comes from a place of equality. Women need equality first before choice becomes meaningful.

And as for gender, liberal feminism was founded on the premise that women's oppression arose from the construction of gender roles and that these roles were largely created rather than innate.

There is undoubtedly a feminism lite these days that pays little other than lip service to the notion of feminism but it draws from both radical and liberal feminist thought. It's not entirely without merit but it's hugely problematic for liberal feminism that it has been identified as a version of feminism lite.

The negative connotations with the term liberal and its association with pretty left based ideology and practice have impacted on the feminist terminology and have become mixed up. The idea of no platforming I would argue is more suited to radical feminist theory than liberal feminist theory. The collective coming together to protest and block hate speech is way more left and radical than the liberal feminist view that individual voices should be heard and that the legal and political framework exists should those voices express views that contravene law. And yet the public consider no platforming to be a liberal form of protest.

The implication upthread was that liberal feminists cannot see what patriarchy really is and cannot therefore abolish it. I disagree that liberal feminists cannot see it - we just disagree with radical feminist theory on what it is and how to abolish it. But on a thread about critical thinking, it jars that liberal feminism and feminists are identified so negatively without any consideration being given to what liberal feminism actually is. And it's happening more and more often on this board in particular.

this is a tired line trotted out to get women to STFU.

Very much so - often trotted out by white women and white men too, which makes it ridiculous. Not only does this dismiss that all women face misogyny and patriarchal oppression but it's also quite insulting to the many WOC who speak on feminist issues and campaign so effectively. One of my best friends is a WOC who herself pointed out to me how risible it was that there are white "liberal" feminists who'd call her a "white feminist".

Added to that, as you say, how could anyone know what ethnicity someone else is on an Internet forum unless told? Slight inherent subtle racism to assume everyone's white unless informed otherwise.

"( I was going to write "identify as ...but I'm beginning to find "identify as.. rather tedious)"

That made me actually lol

In the context of Mn, I would be considered a liberal feminist. I understand radical feminism. I love radical feminism but object to the exclusions or assumptions that all women go through the same issues. By doing that I would automatically fall into the liberal category. I don't mind being in that category because I know it's by choice and understanding that led me there.

This thread was talking about critical thinking and whether people where applying them or not. I didn't think it was trans bashing thread.

Any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice it's not true which is why I agreed with the open post. Does that now make me radical? This would be at the basis of understanding feminism. I would not agree with making of porn. Which gets brought up a lot. It does not matter how ethical people might make it sound.

With Trans issues, am not ok with invasion of the female spaces but am ok with trans people being trans and owning who they are. Do I sometimes feel guilty that they are being treated the same way black women would have been treated? Absolutely. I think I would not be human if I didn't. At the same time question what a woman is an what it means. Also, does it mean the same thing to all races. Whether it more valued by some more than others. Am sure that would be critical thinking. I try not to draw conclusions, because ever time I encounter new information my way of thinking broadens too.

I find it alienating that so many posters on here are willing to write off liberal feminists on the untruths that liberal feminism is all about choice and is supportive of trans ideology."
Well, certainly I have not read or heard anything that would make me think differently to this.
I don't think all liberals think in that way. Anyone who understood the way society works, would know most choices are not made without effects of society.

Plenty of feminist theory stands together and transcends the various politics and is all the more powerful for it. Please elaborate on this. I didn't think they did. Am sure I saw threads on Mn aligning with Christian fundamentalist because it one think people have agreed on. But at the same time forgetting it will be the same group who will deny women the rights to abortion or contraceptives.

The feminist theory that is discussed is generally through the lens of radical or liberal feminism from white women and rarely is there a different view heard this is a tired line trotted out to get women to STFU. How would you know what ethnicity anyone is on the Internet?^^
^^
I'm don't know what skin colour posters have but I do know that when there have been threads on here about, for and by women who are BAME, they have pointed out that FWR and much online discussion centres around issues that largely trouble white, middle class women. That very little consideration is given to issues outwith the framework of privileged white women and that intersectionality only gets discussed in the briefest of ways.

It's been a huge criticism by women of radical and liberal feminism that both are narrow in their focus and aims and that criticism was an attempt, primarily by black feminists, to open up the discussion, not to tell women to STFU.

So, no, I'm not telling any woman to STFU, simply pointing out that there is a creeping tendency to be dismissive of other feminist views and that there are consequences to that. That would seem to be to be an important awareness in any attempt at critical thinking.

I agree that liberal feminism is getting muddled with general social justice and broadening to include lots of causes outside those affecting women. What do we call that new movement though? If I do that feminism quiz I'm a liberal feminist. But my feminism aligns more with things currently defined as "radical".
At the end of the day I don't really care which faction people want to align to. I started the thread because I think "feminism" is being diluted to the point of being meaningless, because people don't seem to want to apply critical thought to things like "concerns about prostitution = SWERF = bad bigotry"

I may be white, but I'm also disabled and a weird cross of middle, working and underclass (!! ) yet I've never felt excluded from "online" feminism? Where does this happen?

Is it purely a race thing rather than a "privilege" thing, and that's why I'm missing it?

issues that largely trouble white, middle class women

Plenty of these are issues which trouble all women. Being middle class and white doesn't shield me from misogyny, doesn't reassure me much when being harassed on the street etc. Of course it's vital feminism benefits all women and all women are heard within feminism (I can think of so many WOC who are magnificent feminists doing vital campaigning) but something being an issue faced by "white middle class women" doesn't render it irrelevant or a minor concern.

privileged white women

Privileged for being white, not for being women. Why do I always see this term used and rarely if ever "privileged white men"?

I'm not sure about the term radical for what I see as fairly moderate 'normal' feminism. Most of my beliefs would be categorized as radical and yet I'm about as middle of the road, moderate as they come. To me, the idea we should primarily understand gender as identity and that it has nothing to do with sex is the radical thing.

"Radical" does not mean "extreme"or "very"

Well said IamAmy

Am sure I saw threads on Mn aligning with Christian fundamentalist because it one think people have agreed on. But at the same time forgetting it will be the same group who will deny women the rights to abortion or contraceptives.

I don't think anyone forgets that for a minute! Women on both sides of that alliance are very consciously setting aside their other fundamental differences in order to stand together against gender ideology as a single issue. I do not for one minute believe those women think they're all friends now.

It's an uncomfortable alliance but I understand why it's happening and I think it's useful in the current climate.

Bertrand no of course it doesn't, extreme or very means extreme or very. Radical does mean something that is going to overturn or destroy something though, and that's what genderism is currently doing.

There are some strange alignments at the moment but that is the case outside feminism too. It's part of a wider breakdown of left/right politics and a result of concepts being appropriated by different groups to mean different things. Such as sex and gender and freedom and liberty. I think what we have to remember when organizing for political ideals is that if we use a tactic, the other group who are against us can use that tactic too.

I sometimes despair but the critical thinking I have found on mumsnet is keeping me going.

I think the whole Donald Trump thing has brought the notion of privileged white men, particularly rich Republican ones very much to the fore. But I wasn't talking about men.

It's not a controversial point of view that feminism, particularly liberal feminism, had been focused largely on the writings and theories of white, able bodied, middle class , western women and for a long time remained the preserve of those educated or in academia. Their experiences shaped feminism in a way that didn't reflect the issues or demands of life on other women of different cultures .

What's your background blistory?

This article picks apart the supposed impact of postmodernist thought on the rest of the west:

areomagazine.com/2017/03/27/how-french-intellectuals-ruined-the-west-postmodernism-and-its-impact-explained/

It's a long read, but it introduces some of the "main players" and offers, I think, a pretty good counter-argument that we might be able to relate across certain issues currently up for debate on the mn fem boards.

Rightly or wrongly, it's a fine example of critical thought of ever I saw one!

*if

I've said before on different threads that I think modern variants of 'liberal' and 'radical' feminism are quite different from those of the 70s and 80s. There were also different variants in the past such as cultural, psychoanalytic, socialist, marxist, materialist and existentialist feminism. Modern versions are more polarised than what I grew up with.

I blame the pomos. :)