Beat THIS for an answer to the question "what is a woman?"

[SerfnTerf]

First answer: "A woman is someone who is identified as a woman. That's why people say it's socially constructed"

Me "But that's circular. There must be a definition of what a woman is for anyone to identify or be identified as one"

Second answer: "If you give any definition of a woman, there are people who you could identify as "a woman" and who anyone on the street would say - "That's a woman" - and they would not fit that definition"

So... what, we can't define woman because we can't actually define the word in a way that encompasses men? So let's not bother? I don't have enough words or brain to take that any further. Just wow.

We could reidentify the grey squirrels as red squirrels, then we wouldn't have to worry about them going extinct.

ZaziesPaws and xStefx

Brilliant!

It's all language games, isn't it? Played by obfuscators.

Zazies :-) I could go on all night lol

I think us kittens and kangaroos make a genuine point ! Where does the madness end , or more to the point where did it begin? Xx

Default definition of 'Woman' = female and in possession of two X-chromosomes, however there are many people who live their life as a woman so they might or might not be included depending on why the question was being asked.

That would be my answer to the question if anyone were to ask me, but they haven't.

Why you ask the question doesn't really affect the definition of woman though, does it? If I ask how many squirrels live in that tree, the answer wouldn't include the person who is sitting in the tree. No matter how long they have sat there.

depending on why the question was being asked.

Well that's a whole crux of the matter isn't it? If it was just confined to pretending a man was the woman for the sake of his peace of mind, few people would care. Indeed, they never have really cared.

It's when it's made legal and means that that person is considered female for everything else that is generally reserved for biological women.

How does one live their lives "as a woman"? Presumably by having operations/hormone treatment etc, wearing what would traditionally be female clothing & make-up, calling themselves Sandra instead of Malcolm or whatever else, I've no idea what would be involved.

That is a discussion for others - since I don't know anyone who might fall in to that category, I wouldn't be the best person to ask.

If, however, I'm asked for an opinion, I do like to find out why someone wants to know.

Presumably by having operations/hormone treatment etc, wearing what would traditionally be female clothing & make-up, calling themselves Sandra instead of Malcolm or whatever else, I've no idea what would be involved.

This is it, isn't it? All that does is indicate to everybody else that you want to be treated as though you are a woman, albeit the woman of your fantasy.

How about we reduce their pay by 20%, constantly talk over them, reduce their promotion prospects, give them the Christmas card list, tell them to sort out elderly relatives, and take all the kids to the recitals, football matches, carol concerts, etc.

Or, we can subject them to constant sexual harassment, ogling, and objectification. Except...that's kind of the point why they're doing it.

To validate them as women in the way they want, we have to treat them in the way we can't stand to be treated whilst at the same time they have some kind of pass not to take up all the responsibility that women generally have to shoulder.

'Living your life as a woman' is impossible unless you are a woman. Appropriating a selection of traditionally female 'trappings' does not make you a woman.

I could climb a tree and eat a lot of nuts, I still won't be a squirrel,

That's it in a nutshell, Datun. I wonder how many vocal, late-transitioning trans took on the "womanly" responsibilities when they were younger. Especially those who insist they were always a woman.

WittgensteinsCat

From what I have read, they actually destroy their marriage by transitioning, leave their wives, spend all their money on the accoutrements of their 'femininity' and end up estranged from their children. No woman wants to be told that her marriage has actually been a same sex relationship, if only she understood.

So a bit like those middle-aged blokes who ditch their wives for a "younger model" with pert breasts, except that their "new love" is actually themselves (with pert breasts)? And, as you said: constant sexual harassment, ogling, and objectification. Except...that's kind of the point why they're doing it.

It's bad enough that families get torn apart, but for the wives and children in these cases, it's not something that they could easily talk about, and in any case, who else would understand? Divorce/separation is sufficiently common that a child would know at least one other child who's experienced such a family breakup, but not for the reason that Dad is now a woman. And, of course, the teaching of being nice to transchildren in schools won't help either.

"No woman wants to be told that her marriage has actually been a same sex relationship, if only she understood."
Which is why there is a spousal veto in the original Gender Recognition Act (that the trans lobby wants to get rid of), so that a woman cannot be forced into a same-sex marriage without her consent.

Sheila Jeffreys in 'Gender Hurts' is particularly good in that she also looks at what happens to the woman who becomes the 'other' woman in these cases (and of course, they get short-shrift from the trans lobby if they are anything other than totally accepting of their 'former' husbands shiny new identity.......).

The transactivists are always trying to reverse that veto somedyke. It was one of the reasons why I thought my MP (Helen Grant) might be sympathetic. She stood up against them.

Sadly, though, yet another woman who, if isn't she drinking the Kool-Aid in pints, is certainly sipping.

My experience of people going through transition is absolutely not of arrogant or dominant people. Far from it. Some won't even speak out loud in public. Clearly something about changing sex is part of most cultures in most eras. The suffering most trans people express about their pasts is horrible to me. What I don't understand is why it is not possible to say that this looks exactly like schizophrenia or major depression or an eating disorder - a coping mechanism for people in pain, or sometimes a cultural response to social breakdown or unacceptable levels of mental and physical suffering.

What it isn't is 'becoming a woman' or 'becoming a man' and it infuriates me that the absolute divide in our society between mental and physical being means that people resist being put into a box that indeed doesn't capture their experience or their need for fundamental change. I'm not transexual and I don't know what the answer is but from the outside it is absolutely not insisting that transition is the answer to all the pain and people who have transitioned don't have pain any more and have become something completely new.

PoochSmooch Tue 04-Apr-17 20:24:31
Transgender is"le transgénérisme", ie masculine. Quel surpris*-

Very amusing, Pooch

What I don't understand is why it is not possible to say that this looks exactly like schizophrenia or major depression or an eating disorder - a coping mechanism for people in pain, or sometimes a cultural response to social breakdown or unacceptable levels of mental and physical suffering.

Because the transactivists have done a pretty good job of making sure it isn't referred to in that way.

Referring to it like that is considered highly transphobic.

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that it is a painful experience. Statistically, 87% of people who identify as trans have at least three comorbid conditions. The highest of which is narcissism.

When you've got a mental health condition and narcissism, it's incredibly difficult to cut through that to diagnose. And it's the last thing they want.

I totally agree with you that it should be considered from a psychological point of view not as a belief system.