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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

When your friends drank the Kool-Aid

53 replies

VestalVirgin · 31/03/2017 11:55

There's many threads by parents whose children have drunken the Kool-Aid ... but what do you do when a (female, somewhat feminist) friend is a genderist?

I have met so many young women who try, at the same time, to maintain feminist ideals and justify forcing women to share showers, prison cells and toilets with male-bodied persons. Loads of cognitive dissonance there.

So far, I have been following the advice for being friends with people in abusive relationships - i.e. I have not tried to make them justify their ridiculous beliefs, as I fear they would then cling to them all the more. Especially as most of those women move in social circles that only consist of rabid trans-allies who they know would punish them for questioning the dogma.
But in the end, they are adults, and they know, deep down, that the genderist nonsense is nonsense. So, if they are ready to leave, I told myself, they will do so.

But perhaps that's not the best way?

Has anyone been in this situation? What did you do?

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 31/03/2017 15:06

I agree with most of you say Dervel, but male violence isn't the whole issue for women with regards to women's spaces. The right to set boundaries and be entitled to privacy, sensitivity and dignity are important too. Also to have spaces where what men think and do isn't the priority. We don't live in a unisex gender neutral utopia and it's pointless to pretend that we do.

Dervel · 31/03/2017 17:25

Thank you for your reply Venus, personally I don't think our differences are that vast. I don't think as a bepenised individual what goes on in female spaces should have anything to do with me whatsoever.

I happen to agree with the terf position on this issue, but it's getting an almighty drubbing in the court of public opinion at the present moment. As far as I can see the reason for this is the position for this is one advanced from a position of emotion.

"Trans people have it hard, and you don't want to dump on a minority do you?" Seems to be at the level most people engage with the issue on, and you can't reason someone out of a position they have arrived at emotionally.

Seeing as wider society seems to care fuck all for women at the moment I'm simply trying to centre on the biggest problem the trans community faces at the moment which is namely male violence. Getting all riled up about which bathrooms they use is pretty small fry next to the male violence they get subjected to. So if I can't get people to care about women I'll try to get them to care about that.

The rhetoric that has got so many paying lip service to trans issues (and it IS only lip service), is that everyone is terrified of being on the wrong side of history or by being the bad guy. It's not the leaders pushing the trans agenda it's the general mass of people that need swaying. Average people might espouse the superficial line but if you take them into the nuance and complexity they tend to back off pretty quickly.

I'll go out on a limb and say I would guess most assault and violence towards women, ethnic minorities, homsexuals and transsexuals comes from men. Any time trans issues, feminism racism comes up is an opportunity to focus on that.

So rather than being divided whenever those topics come up I find a simple "yes it's all very concerning and complex, of course none of this would be anywhere near as bad if men weren't quite so violent." It's insane how many different conversations that line is relevant.

GuardianLions · 31/03/2017 19:07

I would say that men have no business going into women's toilets, changing rooms etc for any reason other than cleaning/maintenance if that is their job.
If a male's presentation makes them feel more at risk of violence from other men - it is not up to women to be the solution.
The kind of men who are violent towards other men for being gender non-conforming are going to be the same men who are violent towards other men for being gay or from an ethnic minority. As far as I know, hate criminals do not specifically seek out male victims for hate crimes in male toilets - gay and black men aren't campaigning for the right to find refuge from hate crimes in women's toilets are they?
However males who wish to be violent towards and to violate women do go to women's toilets, seek out women's spaces, set up camaras etc.
I don't think there's any evidence to support the idea that a MTT is at any more risk of male violence with his dick out at a urinal, than he is walking down the street.

venusinscorpio · 31/03/2017 19:13

It's dishonest. It's not about protection from male violence for the average UK transwoman. It's about validation.

GuardianLions · 31/03/2017 19:51

Exactly. It is all about a fixation with 'passing'...
And guess what? It is not up to women to provide the solution.

GuardianLions · 31/03/2017 19:55

And worse than that. It is a creepy fetishisation of female vulnerability and and the language of our struggles.

"I am so afraid of male violence, I'm such a laydeee!" totter, totter...

CharlieSierra · 31/03/2017 22:11

Flavia is it possible for you to share a link to that please?

FlaviaAlbia · 31/03/2017 22:23

@CharlieSierra I'm sorry, I saved it to my phone from Facebook so the original isn't any better quality...

CharlieSierra · 31/03/2017 22:46

Ah, thanks anyway.

IrenetheQuaint · 31/03/2017 22:57

"One group (the majority) hate all sport anyway, therefore can't see why it matters" - ha, this is me (well, apart from when it comes to transwomen beating the shit out of women, which I do find pretty upsetting).

I loathe gender stereotyping so tend to come at it from that angle - "wouldn't it be great if it was fine for boys to like dresses and pink and girls to like football and playing war games, then children wouldn't feel they were in the wrong body and go through lots of stressful surgery and hormone treatment". It's really hard for liberal types to argue in favour of gender stereotyping, however much they may secretly believe in it.

Original poster
VestalVirgin · 01/04/2017 00:25

I hate sport, but I still see why it matters. While I personally may not care about sport, I know that other women want to be able to do professional sports, and that it can be a ticket out of poverty for some women.

Also, women being beaten up by males and it being called sport because the men "identify as women" = not cool.

OP posts:
Datun · 01/04/2017 08:42

The argument that if we removed gender stereotyping there wouldn't be any transwomen doesn't stand up, at least at the moment. In theory, it would work, but how many millennia are we away from that?

Transwomen desperately want that gender stereotyping (particularly the autogynephiles). If gender stereotyping didn't exist, they would have to invent it.

And as for male violence, Dervel is right up to a point. Having zero fear of men in your bathroom would, at least, remove that issue.

However, if you could guarantee to me that any man who came into my bathroom was as gentle as a lamb, I still wouldn't want him in there.

Even kind, gentle men change the dynamic of a woman's space.

Datun · 01/04/2017 08:43

I still think we should come out male violence whenever we see it, though. It is gendered and the word male needs to be put in that sentence every time.

Datun · 01/04/2017 08:44

*call out

GuardianLions · 01/04/2017 10:09

Datun I agree we should call out male violence, but there is a distinction between male violence against women and girls and male violence towards other males including hate crimes - and conflating the two can make it seem logical that women's spaces should be refuges for males from male violence like hate crimes, when they exist partly to protect females from MVAWG, but also to protect our dignity, privacy, etc from male entitlement and intrusion.
I think dervel was wrong in thinking it is up to women to protect males from hate crimes in our bathrooms and spaces, withough considering that males in dresses, however gentle and in fear of hate crimes, are still intruding on women's privacy and dignity - which their fear of hate crimes does not entitle them to do.

WobblyLegs5 · 01/04/2017 10:13

It's worse than not cool vestal, it's criminal, or atleast it would be if a man beat a woman like that under any other circumstances (not prosecuted enough ofcourse but that's a seperate issue) and making it ok for a woman to be violently assaulted by a man for sport sends a very dangerous and disturbing message.

GuardianLions · 01/04/2017 10:23

Agreed WobblyLegs5

WobblyLegs5 · 01/04/2017 11:39

& thinking about it it would encourage even more victim blaming, the general thought will be that she chose to box, she knew the risk, it was her fault if she got injured. Teeny step to she consented to a beat down, she was asking for it etc

Datun · 01/04/2017 12:28

I completely agree GuardianLions.

Man can sort out amongst themselves how they are going to tackle violence against themselves.

I don't want any men in my spaces for any number of reasons, only one of which is the threat of violence.

And I don't want entitled mean anywhere near me at all.

Datun · 01/04/2017 12:28

*men

makeourfuture · 01/04/2017 15:46

It was Flavour Aid.

venusinscorpio · 01/04/2017 15:54

Flavor Aid, don't you mean?

FlorenceLyons · 03/04/2017 21:43

I made some progress with my 'drained the entire Kool-Aid bottle' teenage daughter this evening. I talked about women in rape crisis centres being expected to share rooms with people with penises, got her to google Danielle Muscato, talked about people with male bodies being able to compete against women in sport. Her view at the end was that both biological sex and gender identity should be recorded for people, and that in some areas biological sex should be what is used to categorise people. This was a significant shift for her.

Original poster
VestalVirgin · 03/04/2017 21:58

I fear my friend would declare Danielle Muscato a horrible outlier that's not representative, et cetera.

How did you do it? Just told her to google it and see what comes up?

OP posts:
FlorenceLyons · 03/04/2017 22:28

I just suggested she google images of DM. I don't think she'd really come across the idea of people identifying as the opposite gender without making any attempt to change their physical appearance. I think she also considered DM unrepresentative of trans people (as I guess they probably are), but it gave me a way in to talking about some of the consequences of identity trumping biology.

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