Hadley Freeman: Identity is the issue of our age: so why can’t we talk more honestly about trans women?

[IllBeBackmaybe]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/18/identity-issue-our-age-talk-more-honestly-trans-women

Though some of you might be interested in this.

Yes - thinking about it I wouldn't retweet Hadleys piece on Twitter for fear of losing my job.

So yes it is brave.

Good article

Really TheBogQueen, that's shit! Is it because of the area you work in that they'd frown upon this article being shared?

I thought she pulled her punches. Maybe this is as much as she can say?

Weirdly I've opened this thread after just reading her article - agree it was excellent, and just what's needed.

BogQueen - I'm genuinely shocked that you think you'd lose your job if you retweeted. That's appalling. I lead a sheltered life.

But to me it feels so much like being in a totalitarian state where saying something as mild and blindingly obvious as "Acknowledging differences and being supportive are not mutually exclusive.” is seen as controversial and has to be spoken in such hushed and gentle tones. this is how it feels to me too. I'm really glad people are starting to speak up obviously, but it's all so hesitant. And still the backlash is such that you'd think these writers were actually issuing death threats!

BogQueen - I'm genuinely shocked that you think you'd lose your job if you retweeted

I'm freelance, on an ad hoc assignment right now which I would definitely not be invited to renew if I let my cloven TERF pop out on social media by retweeting/sharing any of these articles.

I had no idea. I live in a bubble. I'm sort of glad now I've never got to grips with twitter.

I was so pleased to see this. I think we should all write to the Guardian and let them know. Because the letters page in next Saturday's magazine is going to be FULL of this story.

Great piece. It almost seems like women are gradually feeling able to state some basic truths.

Eddie Izzard though He dined out on his "action transvestite" and "male lesbian" skits for YEARS, and now he's piggybacking on the trans bandwagon? FFS.

I don't know much about his stance in the past - do you think he hid behind socially acceptable norms to support his career? Always felt he was a hero for breaking stereotyped norms.

I think Izzard is an autogynephile. Whilst he was asserting he liked women's clothes he was almost like the acceptable face of AGP (similar to Grayson Perry - a self confessed dress fetishist, out and unapologetic).

Izzard was 'breaking down gender stereotypes' yes. But it served him to do so. Not because he thinks they are damaging, but because he gets off on it.

Now being 'trans' serves him even better. He's at the cutting edge of gender expression - all upfront and trendy.

And yes, i've always liked him, but this latest trip is pissing me off.

Thanks datun, I'd equated him with Grayson who I know more about.

I still like Eddie but I don't like these takes on it.

I work in the public sector. My organisation is energetically pursuing an equality and diversity agenda which is brilliant fur the workforce and I wholeheartedly support that. But a more nuanced discussion is out of the question at the moment. And colleagues follow me on social media. So I stay out of it

losing my job is probably overstating it - but it's so easy to be taken down as a bigot on social media and I can't afford for that to happen. So its best to stay out of it.

I went right off Eddie Izzard when he announced that his girl genes were responsible for him being into heels. Bellend.

To me he just likes manicures (man-icures!) and started his statement by saying long nails on a man would have been in the past used as a weapon to catch prey.

He's talking bollocks and needs to do a day's gardening, which would make him realise that anyone in a society where nearly everyone is involved in some sort of manual labour would be very unlikely to have long nails.

I've come to the conclusion that Twitter is called Twitter because it is for Twits.

Very good point ebearhug.

Disappointed overall with Hadley, she's very happy to throw intellectual giants like Greer overboard, ooh, I'm not like that mad old bigot. Well you know what, I am, and am only about 3 years older than Hadley so fuck off with your disingenuous ageism. Glad to see the overall trend thiugh

I too am sure that HF's views on the topic go deeper than this, but this is as far as she could go as a starting point. She has seen the vitriol and abuse thrown at JM and CNA so she clearly knew the same would be coming for her too. Yes there are a couple of problematic moments in the article, but she made her point well. This is heartening.

Bet Hadley's on MN, hi Hadley.

Thought it was a good article, but not hugely controversial - JM's went further and was much more opinionated. It's sad to see even something like this receiving a backlash.

It would be interesting to see if there were any other points of views expressed on trans people by people who have a powerful platform in the media just so different perspectives could be considered and discussed.

Discussion is vital. Discussion takes different people and people with many viewpoints. It sometimes feels that viewpoints are fixed in their view and are absolute in their views.

Maybe a trans person who is not so fixed on their views and adament they are a woman should be offered a platform to discuss the issues from their perspective. Platforms can be powerful and it's hard to get different views out if you haven't got a platform.

And Paris Lees is not the person to respond as she is very fixed on her views and is very likely not to help any trans cause.

Nor I suspect is Jane Fae.

Caroline Criado Perez has spoken in her favour on Twitter. I don't know if she was already known as gender critical/questioning?

It's awful that someone gets abuse for questioning something and raising concerns. If that happens, people become nervous and reluctant to enter a debate.

It's a difficult debate with lots of complex issues and possible solutions to them. It's a debate that needs to be had and different voices with different experiences need to be heard - from all viewpoints. Not sides but viewpoints. Otherwise people from different viewpoints to yours don't get heard and you start to live in an echo chamber.