Women's spaces, tell me more?!

[usefultoken]

Hi, I'm a visitor here, I thought this might belong in theory but not sure. I'm Muslim and have been interested in the trans threads and particularly that people have been referring to 'women's spaces' as a positive thing. This is the first time I have really noticed that women only spaces are valued anywhere outside of Islam, where we have different spaces for men and women quite often. Indeed many Muslims are against this, see it as outdated and discriminatory. Personally I find it quite liberating.
I would really like to hear more about the idea of 'women's spaces' as a positive thing and something worth preserving, and any recommended reading (theory type stuff) would be great. I might write an article (not for the daily mail!) if I can get my thoughts together.

Regarding religious worship, if god is male (I don't know what Islam says about that, but the Christian god is depicted as old man whenever someone is blasphemous enough to depict him at all), then there /is/ a man in the women's space, but no woman in the men's space, is there?

(I mean, safety issues do not apply, obviously, but the separation is explicitly not about safety, so ...)

VV I think that the Christian God is, in theory, both male and female. Although in practise this isn't what is promoted or believed. Jesus was male, obvs. Maybe someone who knows more than me will be along soon...

Standard trinitarian is 'God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit'. Two thirds represented as male, one third neutral.

Allah (God) in Islam bears no resemblance to humans and is neither male or female.

Women's spaces are necessary when our biology makes us physically or mentally vulnerable. Hospital, toilets, prisons, rape crisis centres.

I agree. I can't see any reason for making religious worship or social or cultural activities segregated.

pickle That's exactly what I meant but you were far more succinct

useful

That's interesting re. Allah being neither male nor female. Didn't know that.

I think Allah does sometimes get referred to as 'he' - but in a language with no neutral singular personal pronouns, that's presumably because male is, as we're all too well aware, the default.

That's correct, Allah is referred to as 'He', but so are many objects (e.g. pen, book) as there is no 'it'. However, Muslim children are taught from a very early age about the attributes of Allah, so I don't think that 'maleness' is something they associate with Allah. I certainly never did. The uniqueness of Allah from creation is a very important aspect of faith.

As an amusing aside, DH learnt English later in life and has never got his head around 'it', so he will use 'he' and 'she' when referring to inanimate objects in English which is quite amusing, and occasionally confusing!

So did you like me and the mosque op?

not watched it yet, might get a chance this evening, i'll let you know!

Really interesting thread.
IMO the main problem when generally discussing sex segregated spaces is that there is hardly ever any analysis of male violence in the discussion and there are never any thoughts given to having a case by case decision made rather than a blanket approach.

It's very different to desire a single sex space to feel free from potential harm, in a refuge or rape crisis service for example, than it is to insist on separate toilets because toilets can be designed in all sorts of ways so they are still safe to use if gender neutral, but equally they can be designed in ways that have not even acknowledged the possibility of male violence and so can never become safe if they are gender neutral.

Examples: I once went to a toilet in a wetherspoons in Sunderland (oh the glamour!) it was a cavernous space that was accessed by walking down a long lonely corridor in the basement. (300 meters from the bar area?) once inside the toilet, there were stalls back to back, so half of the space was concealed behind the stalls, looking at the room from the door, then there was a large area with mirrors. Whole space bigger than the ground floor of our house. Weatherspoons in Sunderland, not exactly a place I wouldn't expect to meet obnoxious drunks, big gangs of blokes on the piss and on the pull etc. no way I'd feel safe there, even going with a friend.

Whoever designed this toilet had not considered at all how a woman alone might feel going there and had not considered that it would be easy for a predatory male to conceal himself behind the cubicles and equally easy to hang about in the corridor and follow someone in without being seen or heard.
It's no secret that the world is designed for male bodies in size and layout, but also women's specific needs are invariably ignored.

Compare this with the toilet in a community, radical space I use, where there are lots of trans people. Two toilet areas, now gender neutral, but once designed for single sex, open out onto the bar itself. You can see people washing their hands and there is a direct line of sight from the bar to the doors of the cublicles. It is a calm and friendly bar, full of gentle souls. I would never feel threatened there but that's not to say there might not be threatening people, because they don't wear a sign. However, if there was a problem feel confident that it would be noticed and dealt with.

I come from a background that is very patriarchal as well, but it is a Catholic background. I remember attending mass where the women were on the left hand side (because the left was considered dirty and unclean) when attending mass. Thankfully things changed quickly after this and Latin mass went out as did the non mingling of the sexes when attending prayers. I'm no longer religious, but feel that religion does stoke patriarchy and keeps it going, which does satisfy the general patriarchal viewpoint that is endemic.

I'm pleased to know there are mosques where women's spaces are just as valuable as men's. Though there are those mosques behind the times that shoehorn women into a broom cupboard, which is ridiculous.

Do the women have their own prayer evenings? This certainly happened in Catholic churches when I was practising. It was a lovely event, and I quite miss it. Women gave the prayers and the readings. It wasn't mass as such, but a gathering and a discussion, which sometimes got heated, especially with regard to divorce and violence against women. I lived in Northern Ireland at that time.

It's an interesting approach and of course the problem now might be that there will be transwomen who want to go into your space. How is this tolerated? Are transmen allowed into the men's (main) space?

My daughters went to an all girls school, and my son is at an all boys school. All up to sixth forth. Both schools have a sixth form, which is in the main either girls or boys, so not 50/50 mixed.

I've been to the Ladies Pond, just a fantastic place.

Elendon, yes there are many women's events within mosques, I did a lot of my own learning in some fantastic sessions where we could explore issues and argue good naturedly with other women, as well as attending other sessions for both genders?
Trans men/women in gender segregated mosques? I have no idea how this would be handled.

"Treating people equally does not mean treating them the same"

YetAnother, finally got a chance to sit down and watch 'me and the mosque', I really enjoyed it! I know one of the Islamic scholars on there, he came to our house and broke our sofa (accidentally).
It gave me a lot to think about. The woman that made the programme had been used to sharing a prayer space with men, and then it was taken away. For me seperate spaces are the norm. So our different starting points maybe make a difference. I thought she made some really interesting points, and particularly I was interested in the discussion around what the norm was a time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and why it changed. I was discussing that with my husband last night and he is keen to find out a bit more about that too.
But I was still left with the feeling that I couldn't really see why it was so important for men and women to PRAY in the same space. It's not an interactive thing, it's a private thing. Even listening to the Friday sermon, it's not a question and answer session. So for me, if I have open access for study, and decision making, the rest of it doesn't seem very important. Plus the fact that as Muslims, we are quite careful around the opposite sex, in order to remain modest and not cross lines, so I tend to feel more like I can totally relax if there is some physical barrier. I have known a mosque that was open and then had a barrier put in place (a wooden screen). A lot of the women were quite annoyed, but I preferred it. I'm not saying that is the 'right' way, that's just how I felt.

Thank you for your feedback. I really enjoyed it too.

YetAnother, finally got a chance to sit down and watch 'me and the mosque', I really enjoyed it! I know one of the Islamic scholars on there, he came to our house and broke our sofa grin (accidentally)

Well there goes your five minutes of fame. :)

As a secular athiest I guess the subtext for me was that women's spaces were always the second-class ones and never at the front. And of course women never preach to mixed congregations.

I'll think more about your comments and get back to you.

I think at present (I like to try to be optimistic that at some time in the future it won't be the case) there is a real need for women to have spaces without men present in order to try to counter male bias. For example, groups aiming to address the under-representation of women in certain industries/at the top level of most industries etc.

As a lot of pps have said, there's also a need to have spaces where it makes sense to segregate in the interests of dignity - eg. changing areas.

These are very different from having women's areas in social/business etc places which mean that women are either banned from entering the main (male) space or made to feel uncomfortable/unwelcome in the main area.