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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel on "Whorephobia"

54 replies

QuentinSummers · 15/03/2017 20:30

In the Independent
www.independent.co.uk/voices/whorephobia-queer-feminism-fourth-wave-sex-work-prostitution-a7631706.html

She has such clarity in her writing style. I wonder if her no platforming is less to do with "transphobia" and more to do with misogynists having no argument against her logic.

I thought it was a great article anyhow

OP posts:
graciestocksfield · 17/03/2017 06:11

And I am sick of hearing from individual women that their men are all right. Those men have been shored up by the advantages of patriarchy and they are complacent, they are not stopping other men from being shit.

I would hesitate to accuse anyone of being complacent, as we are all mostly complacent. I'm writing words on a website in a comfortable house in a comfortable place to live. I'm hardly living on the edge in Afghanistan helping young women get an education.

DadWasHere · 17/03/2017 07:57

I am so surprised that this is even controversial!

Many who declare themselves feminist want a Nordic model for the exchange of sex for money. Many women who supply sex for money want a New Zealand model. The gap, and everything in it that creates it, generates the controversy in feminism.

Xenophile · 17/03/2017 08:11

Thanks for letting us know Dad.

DadWasHere · 17/03/2017 08:22

Your welcome.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 17/03/2017 08:23

Those who've studied it reckon New Zealand only works (insofar as it works - and there's considerable evidence to suggest the picture is not as rosy as the pro-prostitution lobby would have us belief) because of its geographical isolation. In a country like Germany, a much better social and geographical analogue for the UK, the results of complete legalisation have been disasterous - increased trafficking, mega brothels (where despite the arguments of the pro lobby that this would lead to health care and proper employment contracts, women in fact have none of these protections and are forced to work as "independent contractors"), pop-up brothels on the edges of motorway restplatz where women have sex for 15 euros, and street prostitution still runs rampant (remember, the whole point was supposedly to make women safer), except that the price has now dropped to less than the cost of a big mac.

It's inherent in the nature of capitalism - commodify something and you drive down prices, and people get exploited in the production process. Only now the thing being commodified is women's bodies, and the prices have dropped to a couple of euros for servicing a man's cock on your knees in the gutter. Would you want to do it, Dadwashere? (And no, you're not allowed the get out clause of "but I'm straight" - do you honestly think prostitutes are sexually attracted to their punters?)

You pop up on every thread like this to tell us how wrong we are. And you claim to be a father. So that means you either have sons you're bringing up to think that prostitution is perfectly acceptable, or daughters you're bringing up to think that their bodies are nothing more than commodities to be used by men. I find your continued presence on these threads more than a little bit creepy to be honest.

MercyMyJewels · 17/03/2017 08:24

That's a bit harsh Cruella, I'm sure we could all being doing more

Xenophile · 17/03/2017 10:00

M0stly..iirc he has daughters.

Just let that one sink in for a bit.

Xenophile · 17/03/2017 10:00

And he knows all that, and still thinks women should be made to service dicks.

MercyMyJewels · 17/03/2017 10:06

Yay for happy hookers and market forces

CruellaDeVilsEvilSister · 17/03/2017 10:07

That's a bit harsh Cruella, I'm sure we could all being doing more.

What's a bit harsh?

microferret · 17/03/2017 10:26

I wonder if DadWasHere has a personal interest in legalising/normalising prostitution Hmm
It would certainly appear so.

Here are some facts about prostitution:

  • 85-95% of women in prostitution say they want to get out
  • the average age of entry into prostitution is 13.5 years old
  • 85% of prostituted women come from a background of sexual abuse
  • 70% come from a background of incest
  • 85% of prostituted women report being raped by pimps - the average rate of rape by pimps is 16 times per year
  • Girls & women in prostitution have a mortality rate 40 times higher than the national average
  • 75% of escort prostitutes have attempted suicide

I live in Germany, and as correctly stated by M0stlyBowlingHedgehog legalisation has not improved things for prostitutes, and has instead led to a skyrocketing of STDs, criminal gang involvement, and human trafficking. Basically it makes sense for the gangs to operate here because they know it will be much easier for them to sell trafficked, drug addicted women somewhere that it is legal. And they're not going to give up on trafficking because it is so profitable for them. The only difference legalising prostitution has actually made is that now the police just leave them to it and focus on other things.

Regarding the supposed "benefits", "protections" and "regulation" offered by legalisation, only 44 women have signed up legally as prostitutes.

The idea that legalisation helps sex workers is nothing more than just another misogynistic fantasy.

QuentinSummers · 17/03/2017 10:30

Many women who supply sex for money want a New Zealand model.
Women who have time to campaign for the new Zealand model are unlikely to be the women who are turning to prostitution to fund a drug habit or out of desperation to feed their family.
And there are plenty of prostitutes out there who absolutely don't support legalisation or decriminalisation. Rachel Moran for instance. Or 0phelia who posts here sometimes.
Might suit you to believe the women selling sex are doing it as a job, just like any other. Doesn't mean it's true though.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 17/03/2017 11:25

Thanks for posting this. Good down to earth writing as usual from Bindel. She does a lot of work in this area and I take my hat off to her.

It is concerning that research deferring to sex trade ideology and not academically sound evidence often ends up informing this discussion with detrimental consequences for women and girls, albeit positive consequences for those profiting from this regime of violence.

YY to this.

She sees right through their bullshit.

Beachcomber · 17/03/2017 11:33

DadWasHere called prosituted women "whores" in his first post Angry

I'm sort of tempted to report that but equally tempted to let his misogynistic mansp!ainy pontificating post about feminism and the institution of prostitution remain as a reminder not to bother reading any other non pearls of wisdom he shares with the ladies.

Elendon · 17/03/2017 11:33

Bindel is ace and always has been. She is unstinting in her research into violence against women and should be more widely praised for this. She states as always the bleeding obvious.

DWH obviously doesn't like her views. Which is fair enough. I dislike DWH's opinion. Which is fair enough too.

So DWH, how have you devoted your life to violence against women?

phoolani · 17/03/2017 11:35

I don't always agree with JB (tho I mostly do), but by god, I love her. She's totally out there and unapologetic and that's all too rare in women.

Fairyflaps · 17/03/2017 12:03

Nope, disagree with Dadwashere that New Zealand model is the one most prostituted women would advocate.
And NZ policy is certainly not advocated by all women working in the sex trade there.
reneejg.net/2017/02/23/guest-post-why-dont-more-women-in-new-zealands-sex-trade-advocate-to-criminalise-pimps/
It is surely not a coincidence that the Programmes Co-ordinator of the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective who lobbied for decrim is a man.

PoochSmooch · 17/03/2017 12:15

Of course it's completely possible to love your daughters AND be keen on ensuring that prostitution continues to thrive! (and never connect the dots)

There's a class of women who are glad, nay delighted to function as an exploitable sexual resource, but durrrrr, they're not people's daughters. Not Nice People's daughters anyway. Or maybe they just don't count, because...well, who cares? The main thing is that men aren't expected to change anything. That would be nuts!

(deep sarcasm, obvs)

egosumquisum1 · 17/03/2017 13:09

I don't know what to think about this. I totally see how legalized areas attract sex workers and increase trafficking. I can also see that it does create an area that resources and police etc can work to help the women involved.

But then there are some people who do feel that it is a way to make money. Not easy money. An awful way to make money and very dangerous. In these times there are people who need money and will do anything to get it even though they know the risks. Drug addiction, bills and debt make you do things you really don't want to do.

There is a legalized area near here. There are sometimes a lot of people there with lots of reasons to be there.

Fairyflaps · 17/03/2017 13:29

Article from our local paper about an area where a lot of street prostitution is happening. It's not a legalised area.

The problem is the men paying for sex who only see an orifice they can pay to ejaculate inside, and don't give a shit for the desperate and vulnerable women who are in that position

Beachcomber · 17/03/2017 14:24

Country after country has shown that legalized prostitution leads to more women in prostitution. And that means more men making money from prostitution and more men abusing women in prostitution.

But that isn't really what Bindel is talking about. Her subject is how ideology is being valued over evidence and how those who value evidence and women are being called misogynistic names in an attempt to discredit us as pearl clutchers / prudes / haterz. The hatrerz bit is a total reversal. Who hates women more? Those who support us sucking dick for male money or those of us who want us to have equal economic status with men so we can earn money in safer ways? Those who ignore that most women in prostitution entered as minors and have a history of CSA or other forms of sexualized violence or those who ignore who these women are so they can wax lyrical about "choice" , "agency" and other neoliberal postmodern individualist capitalist claptrap that they believe to be progressive?

The problem these liberals have is that the reality of the institution of prostitution shows their claptrap up for what it is. So they have to deny that reality in order to maintain their ideology. Their ideology is more important than actual women. And they call us haters?!

There might be an argument for prostitution as a way for desperate people to make money if we didn't live in male dominated society and prostitution wasn't overwhelmingly gendered. But we do and it is.

microferret · 18/03/2017 00:11

beachcomber exactly. There is nothing I could possibly add to your comment except my wholehearted agreement.

graciestocksfield · 18/03/2017 04:03

Fantastic post, Beachcomber.

cjdamoo · 18/03/2017 04:42

Spot on from Bindel

sticklebrix · 18/03/2017 08:24

I only recently heard of Bindel (via MN) and am enjoying catching up. She is spot on in that article.

Identifying such arguments as 'radical feminist' risks alienating people from what should be a not-very-radical position IMO. That's my only niggle. Strategically, I think her writing might be more persuasive to many if she avoided using the term in mainstream publications.