Intersectional feminism

[Fauchelevent]

This is my first FWR thread but many of you will know me from the transactivism threads and posts about race and here and there.

On the Rachel Dolezal thread, quite an interesting discussion began about race, feminism and intersectional feminism with Quencher especially raising some very interesting and informed points. But this isn't a TAAT.

The question is intersectionality, intersectional feminism - the movement as it was intended and the movement as it stands.

I'm black, and I feel that discussions with some white women feminists often ignore race or I feel like when race is discussed, there are a lot of issues. Sometimes discussions go down the line of black women setting feminism back by being too hypersexual, muslim/orthodox women seen as backwards and so on. I see on MN a lot of people comparing gender issues to race and saying that if it were race, it would get dealt with but women are on the bottom of the heap. As a black woman i certainly feel shat on for my race as much as my gender. So intersectional feminism seems like the natural destination for women who want and need feminism but feel like mainstream feminism excludes them. Equally, intersectional feminism makes a point to make spaces accessible for disabled people, tackle homophobia and so on.

Yet intersectional feminism has also become a toxic space. It has become a space of stifled debate, regular misogyny and very orwellian. Women who disagree with the party line are blacklisted and sometimes sent death threats. Women who do not toe the party line are also guaranteed to lose any friends in this circle. For example, with student activism becoming increasingly intersectional, it also means there's less room for debate and very little dissent because anyone who disagrees will be ex communicated. So lots of people in their early twenties and younger will have this way of thinking.

I also hear from a lot of feminists who are white that they feel they cannot get involved in intersectional feminist debates because they're shut down as being "White Feminists" even by other (lower case) white feminists.

How do we balance the need for feminism that is aware of racial matters, sexuality, class and so on, because poor women, gay women, and women of colour should not feel shut out of feminism. We have to also understand that women tend to navigate their own cultures and communities differently, we all have different histories and so our feminism may look different and we may need to look outside our experience (making sure disabled feminists can access events and so on)

What we have at the moment is a post modern choice feminism where everyone is included and nothing - including the words woman, female and feminism - has meaning. It means tackling male violence and female oppression takes a back burner and in its place comes discussions of liberating oneself with make up and selfies, whatever you find on everyday feminism, and silencing and violence towards anyone who doesn't agree with absolutely everything in the ideology. Lots of young female feminists are also identifying as non-binary, possibly because they don't have the "feeling like a woman" experience that MTT speak of so assume they must not be women. Occasionally "cis scum" and "white feminists" will be told to shut the fuck up. So its currently full of a lot of issues - but a lot of aspects are it are necessary.

I'm not sure what I hope to get out of this thread really, other than a few thoughts from others. I'm happy to answer any questions - I'm black and early 20s so i have a lot of direct experience with extremely cult like intersectional feminism. Unfortunately I am spartacus though so I get very silenced. Posting on MN is a massive relief. This international womens day was like international virtue signalling day with everyone declaring that its international womens day for everyone who identifies as a woman, non binaries, and all non-cis men and anyone who disagrees should fuck off - so a bit tiresome!

Anyway - no real questions, just hoping for some thoughts and a discussion on intersectional feminism and its issues on the back of the RD thread.

Thanks for the link almond
It took me a while to discover that what the person who wrote the Fawcett report means by 'feminised' workplace - basically cleaning, catering, clerical, caring, right?

I didn't find that helpful. What they essentially mean is a past tense term for sectors of work women have historically been limited to.

This is a very different meaning to a future tense notion of workplaces that are becoming increasingly 'feminised' as a result of feminism and in some part contributing to a 'mancession'

It's an umbrella term for gender roles of women as a class.

Many changes to women's work roles are not positive at all, are not the result of feminism but of austerity and loss of working rights. So the phrase feminisation does not indicate things are getting better for women.

I saw a lot of uses of it in my brief search suggesting changing behavioural expectations in the work place - ie- the workplace is becoming increasingly 'feminised' because of feminism changing behavioural expecations on men (ie- no being an uncouth, lecherous dickhead at work or face a tribunal).

It's class prejudice because it is entirely erasing what working class men and women from those communities have done for the development of rights. In the UK working class communities mentioned (by Guardian) many trade union rights were established, as was the Workers' Educational Association.
Still confused as to why objecting to the term "feminisation" and posting some information about the so-called "mancession" means I have class prejudice and am erasing anyone's contribution to workers rights . And TBH this is what totally fucks me off about intersectional feminism, that I post something that to me seems fairly straightforward in feminist terms and then get tarred with some form of bigotry without really being aware of exactly what I have done to deserve it.

What phrasing do you think should be used then, Quentin? How do we discuss the impact of socially constructed gender in the job market for a particular sex?
I don't think feminisation or masculinisation are helpful because they to me imply something is being changed from a natural state to a forced abnormal state. Probably because I'm a biologist and masculinisation means something different/medical.
I would prefer to talk about female dominated jobs/male dominated jobs or traditionally female/traditionally male employment.

TBH this is what totally fucks me off about intersectional feminism, that I post something that to me seems fairly straightforward in feminist terms and then get tarred with some form of bigotry

This

But I would also add that the 'bigotry' accusations get meted out most by people who want feminism to focus on the plight of males in some way, often trying to twist the analysis of the Status Quo to look like the oppressor - 'The Man' - is actually female - a 'White Feminist' - in other words second wave radical feminism is the problem, not Patriarchy or Imperialism or any other dominating power hierarchy (or the way they intersect).

Do right-wingers have these sorts of conversations? I have always thought they had the great advantage of not having to think at these levels of detail.

Nigel: Well, in a behavioural sense, if we look at the data, we find that structurally...
Oliver: The poor are lazy.
Nigel: ......right.

I don't think so make.
After listening to various brexit debates I've come to the conclusion that right wingers are much less interested in compromise and much more competitive. "I'm right, your wrong"
Although I wouldn't necessarily say the debate here is a left wing thing. I think like others have said it's a proper example of today's "intersectional feminism" where you can end up putting the needs of other groups ahead of women if you feel they are more oppressed.
That's fine but to me it isn't feminism.

I think like others have said it's a proper example of today's "intersectional feminism" where you can end up putting the needs of other groups ahead of women if you feel they are more oppressed.
That's fine but to me it isn't feminism.

Gotcha.