How should trans individuals be included in competitive sport?

[Quodlibet]

I wonder if this has been debated already?

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html

It's a really complex issue clearly, as no one would wish to discourage trans individuals from playing sport.

But as I can see it, if trans individuals are included in mainstream sports competition, girls/women are disadvantaged whichever way the call goes in terms of whether trans individuals are included with their birth gender or the gender they identify with.

If the former, then FTM competitors with a newly gained strength/speed advantage beat F competitors, as in this example in the US.

If the latter, then MtF trans competitors beat F competitors with their residual/inherent speed/strength advantage.

What is the answer? The only one I can think of is that competitors with modified bodies are not able to compete with non-modified competitors (the same way as Oscar Pistorius was not allowed to compete in mainstream men's events as his blades actually could have given him an advantage.) I envisage that there would be resistance to this from some in the trans community as it could be interpreted as excluding trans individuals from sports events. But I can't see how else women's sport doesn't end up massively compromised.

If there are any sports in which top biological females can perform as well as top biological males, then there is no reason for having separate categories. Afaik the only ones are the equestrian events where the human element is skill rather than physical strength and/or size.

The unfair advantage is beyond that of any woman though, that's the issue. MTT have an advantage because they are not the same sex as women, rather than being an exceptionally talented/hard training woman.

Indeed.

MTT should compete against men, and if they cannot compete with men, because of the hormones they took, well, sucks to be them, but I made the decision to not make an effort to train a lot, and, lo and behold, I, too, am excluded from professional sports.

Same with FTT, either they accept that the doping rules mean no testosterone for them, or they accept that they aren't allowed to compete, same as everyone else who takes substances that are classified as doping.

People must live with the consequences of their decisions. Why should trans be exempt from that, when everyone else is not?

Yy assassin, men have larger heart and lungs, higher muscle to fat ratio, narrower pelvis. And a lifetime of training in male levels of testosterone, bar the year before entry

I think they have to have testosterone below 10units, whereas women are naturally 1-3units

Of course sport is based on advantage. But the fastest woman on the planet will only be able to beat very mediocre men.

Any professional man will beat a professional woman hands down. Women's sport will disappear on every level.

Yes, actually its really clear now I think about it- people having surgery or taking hormones to change their bodies should be banned. There, end of story.
I don't see 'transgender' as a legitimate human condition requiring treatment with surgery and /or hormones.
Gender is s social construct and therefore a load of bollocks. It isn't possible to change biological sex and I do not therefore recognise the right of 'transgender' body-changers to compete against those who come to the sports field as nature intended then.

"What annoys me though is they measure testosterone levels and will use those to make a judgement but completely ignore the skeletal advantage males have."

Nonsense

bamb

And that is a basketball team ffs.

I think we'd need to classify by weight, height, testosterone etc. Not birth sex.

Why?

Kanye men have a different skeletal structure to women, how would you take that into account in these proposed classifications? Also lung capacity and heart size?

In competitive sport people should have to compete against members of their own sex. Drugs should be viewed the same whether they're being taken to enhance performance or to aid transition: female athletes should not be allowed to compete if they're taking testosterone.

No one is entitled to play competitive sport as the sex they aspire to. People have to drop out for all sorts of reasons. I agree with Vestal.

Are there any reasoned voices from the trans community debating this?

No, they should not be allowed to compete.

If they had been born female they wouldn't need the hormones or surgery. I dont understand why it isnt classed as an advantage, like doping. they can compete with the men or have a third group. A course of hormones is not the same as being born female.
They cant fairly compete against women, and true sportsmen wouldn't want any kind of unfair advantage.

Another vote for no.

Greater strength, longer stride, longer reach, greater musculature and greater lung capacity all combine to create an unfair adavantage over 'natural' female athletes.

FTM athletes will have the unique disadvantages of a female body against a male athlete.

Unless there is a trans category, once they start to transition, they have to accept their sporting days are over.

No from me. it should be based on biological sex and the same doping rules apply to all.

"true sportsmen wouldn't want any kind of unfair advantage."
Then damned few of them are true. Doping scandals aplenty, in every sport.

Transwomen should not be allowed to complete in women's sport.
It will never be fair. I can't imagine there ever being enough competitors to create a new classification so I'm afraid it's just tough, you can't compete against women. If sport is that important to you, you will have to compete against men. It's exactly the same if you have a disability but don't meet the classification for the sport, you cannot take part.

I think whatever decisions we make need to be based on: Will women watch the women's category and feel that they as a sex are being represented and included? Will parents look at their daughters see them as possible future athletes?

If parents are looking at their daughter Sarah, who happens to be a terrific runner, and not really bothering to cultivate her talents because "Well, we all know that, y'know, 'regular girls'ones that have vaginas and ovaries and have had them from birtharen't going to win anything in competitive sport. You can't quite say that out loud, of course, but c'mon we all KNOW this"--then that is a problem.

Those saying no, trans women should compete with men: logically, that means that trans men should compete with women. Which is what happened in the article I linked to in the OP. A FTM wrestler just beat all the female wrestlers in the state. It cuts both ways but neither works in the favour of the born-female athlete.

Multiple catagories depending on hormone profile. Start with three, broadly current male, female and then an 'inter' category.

A bit like the Paralympics has multiple catagories.

FTTs could compete with women but not if they are on T. The problem with the reported case is the exception to the rules on using testosterone where it is for a "valid medical purpose". This needs to be subject to the athlete retaining a female hormone profile.

Is it a non issue? How many people who are transgender want to compete competitively? Since most have acknowledged mental health issues so disabling they need surgery and a lifetime of medication maybe add a category to the Paralympics?

I had never thought about iron that way, but in some ways it could be argued that if you're born into the wrong body it is a disability, albeit a personal one.

And I don't think that because there are so few trans people who play sports competitively that it's a non-issue. Firstly, it takes just one person per sport to be able to outdo all the biologically, from birth women. Secondly, look at what happens with nationalities when people can utilise them to their advantage. I know someone who is joint British and another nationality. It's a country that doesn't have (m)any nationals playing their sport (being vague here because it's massively identifying). They were trained essentially as a Brit, with all the advantages that bestows, but competed as the other nationality, because they could compete at an international level that way. They were good, but had they competed as a Brit would not have gone nearly as far (unlikely to have been put forward for international competitions). This sporting "success" (on CV that they competed at international level) then got them a uni place that academically they DEFINITELY would not have gotten otherwise. Intelligent, but but not outstanding. Definitely good to have on a competitive sports team though.

Where there's a system, it's natural to expect people to play it to their advantage. This person didn't break any rules at all. The fact that they were seen as an international competitor has made significant positive differences to their life though. It is not unreasonable to think people who can gain competitive advantage wouldn't take it.