Bill put forward in Ireland to reduce sentence for abortion from 14 years to €1

[OneWithTheForce]

Here

I think it's a great idea to get that discussion opened- no punishment is clearly not acceptable so what is enough? I highly doubt €1 will satisfy those who wish to see women publically flogged, what will? I suspect it will remain fixed at 14 years

I am struck by the relevance of this thread to one I was posting on quite a bit yesterday. In that I said I wouldn't take offence to something said by a British person just because of the terrible shared history of the two countries and the oft held view of Bristish people that Ireland was a uncivilised nation of barely literate, religiously cowed simpletons.

I posted that I'd make sure that the intent was to offend before getting annoyed by something. Well here is a perfect example of posts from those who clearly do still hold those ridiculous views.

I salute you for working to change the country you live in to drag it out of the dark ages in relation to women's reproductive choices. What I find baffling is the cognitive dissonance of fighting to change something, whilst refusing to accept what you are fighting to change is out dated, repressive and wrong.

I acknowledged that in my opening post. No cognitive dissonance here. I simply object to the highly insulting and patronising language used to tar the entire nation with the same brush. I also think Appalachians post, which very clearly outlines the issues with securing change is worth reading if you genuinely want to inform yourself.

*earlier post not opening post

I think Appalachian has nailed it. The lack of a rape and incest exemption is key.

When you're arguing with anti-abortionists who say "oh well obviously we'd make an exeption for rape and incest" then they are trying to sound reasonable, but actually they are waving a huge red flag that no matter what they say, they aren't really fighting for the rights of innocent "babies". The products of rape and incest are just as innocent as any others. The only difference is the behaviour of the woman - the people who instantly agree to make that exception are always in it to repress women, and you can defeat them because they're simply nasty, misogynist and wrong.

Ireland's more consistent law is going to be tougher to defeat because although I'm sure there are lots of repressive misogynists there, as there are everywhere, there are also people who genuinely hold the view that the foetus is a person which needs protection despite the pain caused to its mother (short of risk to her life). And I happen to think they're wrong, but they're much tougher to fight with.

So much virtue-signalling arseholery on this thread. A good example of the anti-Irish sentiment rife on MN

Can people not RTFT?

No one knows better than Irish women exactly how women's reproductive rights are restricted under Irish law. That's exactly what our Repeal the 8th campaign is about and it has a lot of popular support. As Appalacian's analysis so clearly explained, it's not about fighting a populace hell-bent on misogyny; there are different issues at play.

What we - as Irish women - are objecting to is pp insulting and patronising the entire country for completely different reasons. Snide remarks about marriage equality and single people having sex? I mean WTAF?

Ireland is a socially liberal country whose laws on abortion are completely out of whack with everything else. If you can't understand that, and insist on viewing the country through some sort of 1950s lens of cultural imperialism, then you're just contributing to the problem and making our job harder. We can do without that kind of "support" thanks.

^^yy maud, I'm feeling increasingly angry about its unchallenged existence on MN.

@AltheaAndOrDonna that is nicely and simply put in a nutshell.
The argument in my circle of acquaintances is polarised to a huge extent. The argument against pretty much consists of a cry for the poor innocent babies regardless of the "what if" question.
I met a young 30 something with the belief all pregnancies, not matter how early deserve a chance. We were talking about miscarriage and I was saying how I dealt with it well and was pragmatic about it. The embryo obviously was not viable. She was horrified at my callousness and said "but its still a a baby,not matter how early" and was glad she hasn't had to deal with it as she couldn't bear losing a child. I left her house fairly quickly as I'm not sure what to say to that!

Ireland is a socially liberal country whose laws on abortion are completely out of whack with everything else. If you can't understand that, and insist on viewing the country through some sort of 1950s lens of cultural imperialism, then you're just contributing to the problem and making our job harder. We can do without that kind of "support" thanks.

Summed it up perfectly Maud.

That was MarDhea but I agree entirely!

Sorry MarDhea although I agree with Maud's succinct analysis as well

So much virtue-signalling arseholery on this thread. A good example of the anti-Irish sentiment rife on MN

YY

Every time I see an article comparing gender inequality in developed countries, Ireland ranks higher (as in, closer to an equal society) than the UK. The wage gap is smaller and I think we have more women in power (might be wrong on that one). So I don't appreciate the views on this thread that Ireland is some horrid backwater where the little women are oppressed.

Granted, the position on abortion does need to be updated (and we will get there eventually) but as stated here that does genuinely come from a place of wanting to protect the unborn rather than wanting to punish women.

I remember reading somewhere (may well have been here) that one of the reasons Ireland generally does well is that there is a strong matriarchal society here - the importance placed on the Irish mammy can be funny but it's also an advantage for men and women in terms of the importance placed on family and caring commitments.

I remember reading somewhere (may well have been here) that one of the reasons Ireland generally does well is that there is a strong matriarchal society here - the importance placed on the Irish mammy can be funny but it's also an advantage for men and women in terms of the importance placed on family and caring commitments.

Yes this is very true I feel. I've also wondered what impact the fact that Irish people in general are so family orientated and, in particular, so fond of children, well at least in my experience, has on attitudes towards abortion.

In reality, if it wasn't so easy esp for the middle classes to get to the UK and access abortion services, this would have changed years ago.

It's why there aren't rape and incest exemptions, the only exemption is threat to life of the mother. It's obviously horrifying, but it is internally coherent. For all their faults, when Irish pro-lifers say they're pro-life, they actually MEAN it, unlike the "fair-weather" pro-life movement in the US, which, as is rightly said above, is inherently misogynistic. It does mean, though, that it (our version, I mean) is harder to push back against.

That said, I think that there is also a lot of hypocrisy at work - the fact that it's so easy (if you have the money - as Emmet Kirwan so passionately describes - ) means that although most Irish people have either had, or know somebody who has had an abortion in England - even my aunt did back in the 70's, for instance, and my pro-life-but-also-pro-choice father helped her pay for it - they can pretend that Ireland is "pure" and "moral" for not technically allowing it.

I'm obviously not actually suggesting this, but if the UK said "Guys, we know how important your laws against abortion are to you, and it seems like we're inadvertently undermining them. How about we ban access to the UK for all pregnant Irish women before 26 weeks, and enforce pregnancy tests on anybody who we suspect of morning sickness at our border crossings?" For how much longer do you think abortion would be illegal in Ireland? The Irish middle class HAS unfettered access to abortion, and as long as that remains the case, there is no need to rock the boat (to Manchester).

I've lived in the UK for 8 years now, and had my two children here. If I got pregnant now, I don't think I'd have the baby (getting on a bit, and my family is complete) and I could have an abortion right here in my own town, probably in the same hospital as I gave birth, safely, locally, able to go home to my own bed later that day. It seems so distant and impossible that in my own country, literally just a couple of hundred miles away, that would not be possible.

I don't like the €1 fine idea, though, because (even though it will never go through) it leaves the principle intact, and that's what we need to dismantle.

Side anecdote: When I was 18, I was "trouble". I wasn't doing anything to excess, but I dressed outlandishly (for my conservative working class family and older parents' sensibilities, anyway!) and there was general anxiety. My dad had the bright idea of a "bonding" weekend, and took me to London - we had a great time, saw the Reduced Shakespeare Company, saw the sights, had lovely meals, visited Carnaby St etc. Later I discovered, that my father's family all assumed that I had been for an abortion. The idea that Dad might just do something nice for me was impossible, but that I (a wild teen!) would be going for an abortion was a perfectly reasonable explanation.