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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Second reading of Gender Identity Bill 24th Feb

67 replies

Stopmakingsense · 19/02/2017 20:45

If you haven't raised this with your MP yet, now is the time -
www.transgendertrend.com/gender-identity-rights-of-the-child/

OP posts:
Scissorcisters · 28/02/2017 12:16

Written to my MP and Maria too, no response from either. Shall we list the MP's so we can see if they are ignoring numerous messages from us? Power in numbers and all that.

CharlieSierra · 28/02/2017 12:20

To those who have been ignored, did you use a template? I was ignored when I did so, but I have received responses to personal letters. I think they filter out template letters, especially if you go via 'write to them'.

nonameinspiration · 28/02/2017 12:45

Signed the petition thanks for posting. That bill is absurd

Scissorcisters · 28/02/2017 14:17

No I wrote my own letter.

genehuntswife · 28/02/2017 14:20

I write to mine, she told me to wind my neck in!!

genehuntswife · 28/02/2017 14:20

Wrote

Semaphorically · 28/02/2017 14:34

I wrote my own letter, but via writetothem. Maybe I will send it again via his website. Or by post, I like that idea. Maybe I will hand write it to really stand out Smile

riobruins · 28/02/2017 14:49

I took a few bits from a couple posted on here and added my own bits in too and emailed it directly to him. I've not had a reply so I'm going to hand write a slightly different version and post it when I get a chance.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/02/2017 15:12

Maybe I will hand write it to really stand out

What colour ink though? Green and heliotrope ?Grin

Bambambini · 28/02/2017 17:21

This guy in Denmark took self identification to it'sclogical conclusion. Fair play to him for donning a one piece swimsuit and making a tit of himself to prove his point.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NDrhMrqBe48

Datun · 28/02/2017 17:47

bamb

I can't get it filming with English subtitles. I saw the comments which had been translated. Are you sure he's making a point and he is not serious?

Semaphorically · 28/02/2017 17:51

What colour ink though? Green and heliotrope ?

That would be hard to ignore! Grin

Datun · 28/02/2017 18:03

Reddit says he is doing it to make a point. I do hope so.

But it's quite extraordinary that I can't tell!

Bambambini · 28/02/2017 19:23

Ah, i saw it on Reddit and it had englisg subtitles. I'm sure he's showing how mad the self identification is.

Datun · 28/02/2017 22:03

bamb

I'm really not convinced he's doing it to make a point. But, either way, the point is being made.

Apparently he is suing one of the swimming baths for not allowing him to change in the female locker room.

Should be interesting.

shinynewusername · 28/02/2017 22:20

Here is an example of where gender identity has led in the US. Vulnerable women prisoners being locked in cells with men and forced to shower as the men masturbate. Oh, and the local lesbian rights spokesperson called the women bigots for complaining Angry

Datun · 28/02/2017 23:41

shiney

That is horrific.

And this in the comments:

The trans movement even has a new strand in its ideology: they now claim that because a very very few real women commit sex crimes you should consider crimes of sex and violence as equally female and male. We should stop campaigning against male violence. Its transphobic."

Is that what's coming here?

Semaphorically · 05/03/2017 06:00

Do you think the members of the Garrick Club in London and the Muirfield golf club realise what this will mean for them? Associations and private clubs can restrict membership to people who share a particular protected characteristic, but going forward if this bill goes through then being a "man" would include females who identify as men, thus allowing women in. Interesting test case, further to the issues of sex-based segregation vs gender-identity-based segregation.

Stopmakingsense · 05/03/2017 08:53

Just wondering what the Church of England would think about marriage between a man and a man who identifies as a woman. Or a woman who identifies as a man becoming a catholic priest. Any theologians out there?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 05/03/2017 10:20

The Church of England is an organisation particularly adept at believing in 6 mutually incompatibility things before breakfasting on curate's eggs.

WoodPigeonInFlight · 17/03/2017 17:12

IrenetheQuaint You seem quite clued up on the bill's status as a private members' bill and that this means it won't get far. Please could you explain a bit more how this works, how we can be sure(ish) it won't pass further on, and what stage it should get kicked out?

PencilsInSpace · 17/03/2017 22:15

I've spent a bit of time digging and trying to work out exactly what this bill is about, or likely to be about, given we don't have the wording yet. This will probably be a bit long and dry, but might be useful to some. I needed to get my thoughts in order.

Info post

This bill proposes to change the 2010 Equality Act. Mariah Miller is Chair of the Women & Equalities Committee and the MP bringing this bill.

All we have so far is:

A Bill to make gender identity a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 in place of gender reassignment and to make associated provision for transgender and other persons; and for connected purposes.

The Women & Equalities Committee report on trans equality is here. There is a section in the report about changing 'transgender reassignment' to 'transgender identity' in the EA here.

According to this report:

  • the term 'gender reassignment' is 'outdated and confusing'.
  • It fails to protect trans people who are not proposing to have anything to do with the medical profession.
  • it fails to protect 'broader kinds of trans identities' such as non-binary people.

The proposed solution is to change the wording in the EA from 'gender reassignment' to 'gender identity'. The report suggests adopting the Yogyakarta Principles, in which 'gender identity' is defined as:

each person’s deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body (which may involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or function by medical, surgical or other means) and other expressions of gender, including dress, speech and mannerisms.

A lawyer has been engaged to turn this into workable legislation. Claire McCann was quoted in the report as saying:

Clearly, in my view, the addition of “gender identity”—if defined as referring to each person’s internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth—will widen the protected characteristic within s.7 of [the Equality Act] to include elements of the “transgender” community more widely.

She had a lot more to say than that, you can read her full report here.

If 'gender reassignment' is changed to 'gender identity' in the EA, McCann proposes that:

a legislative amendment might look as follows:

“Gender identity refers to each person’s internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned to that person at birth, including the personal sense of the body (which may involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or functions by medical, surgical or other means) and other expressions of gender, including name, dress, speech and mannerisms36. It includes references to a person who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”.

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The further aims of this bill could be anything:

to make associated provision for transgender and other persons; and for connected purposes.

The other thing Miller could go after connected with the EA is the exemption for female sex-segregated spaces, services etc. to exclude transwomen. This is where toilets, prisons, shelters, crisis services, changing rooms, sports etc. etc. come in. Women's orgs, services etc. already have to show they have a legitimate reason for excluding transwomen and that they are doing their best to provide for transwomen via alternative arrangements if they cannot accommodate them in their mainstream services. I need to check this but my understanding is that the report recommends removing this exemption for anyone who has a GRC - i.e. anybody who has a GRC will be allowed in all female spaces and categories.

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This is not a 'self-identification' bill - that would require a change to the gender recognition act. The report recommends that too though so keep watching!

The combination of this bill (which is unlikely to pass this time) plus a change to the gender recognition act would spell the end of sex segregated spaces and services.

WrongTrouser · 19/03/2017 18:44

Thanks for that explanation Pencils - really helpful.

I'm working my way through the Women & Equalities Cttee report and need a shoulder to cry on. It is so depressing to read.

Points so far:

  • groups and people who gave evidence - all trans it generic (health etc), no women's organisations
  • frequent mention of a transwoman being sent to a male prison. No reference. Would that be Tara Hudson of the 7 inch surprise?
  • Lots of calls for the gender reassignement process to be "de-medicalised" and for transgenderism not to be seen as a disease or disorder. I am confused if that is the case why people would be able to get treatment by the NHS. Can anyone explain this? I'm trying to think of other examples of non-medical issues addressed by the NHS. All I can think of is contraception, which is essentially preventative health.

The worst bit so far is a foot note to 1.1 Introduction which defines "gender variance" as a synonym for transgender or trans, and says this "refers to behaviour and interests that are outside what is considered "normal for a person's assigned (biological) sex".

How have we gone so far backwards so quickly?

V depressed. Only up to page 23.

Notafish · 19/03/2017 20:30

Really helpful. Thank you those who are reading and summarising.

WobblyLegs5 · 20/03/2017 12:01

Do you think this is effectively being 'sneaked in' while everyone's stressing over may triggering article 50 neXT week? No one's going to pay much attension to this when there is 'real' things going on iykwim. Or I expect that's the thinking behind it. Like how all the disability cuts happened while everyone protested the tc cuts etc