Woman writes a book with her rapist about forgiving him

[DeviTheGaelet]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/woman-writes-book-teen-sweetheart-9779992

What do you think about this?
I'm horrified that he seems to think it's enough for a rapist to just admit he did it (years after the fact). I think he should be prosecuted.
I've read other views suggesting it's societies fault that men don't realise this kind of scenario is rape and that those men aren't necessarily bad people.
Just wondering what people on here thought

Or there aren't the right words for a rapist to stand alongside the woman he raped and give a TED talk. Maybe a rapist who hadn't been held to account legally is not the person to stand up and talk about it. Maybe any discussion about rape presented in any vaguely similar way needs to pay due reference to the trauma (more than just words), whether the speaker has moved beyond that or not, if it is not going to be painfully minimising for women listening. Maybe the most carefully chosen words are insufficient if you do not have the right message.

Yes, exactly. It's not just about Thordis' feelings. And it certainly isn't about his.

And it is going to be mainly women listening and reading the book. This dialogue can go on and men will pay little attention.

Agree with Venus and Yoshimihere.

And if his message is so complicated and nuanced that adult women with experience of feminism and being a woman in rape culture aren't convinced by it, I have my doubts that it is going to be a lightbulb moment for young men (that is if any of them listen to him or read the book).

What is so amazing about his story that it overcomes the fact that he is the perpetrator of a brutal rape who got away with it?

I can't shake the feeling that this is one of those situations where women say something and no-one listens, and then a man repeats it and everyone acts as if he's had a brilliant insight.

Does it only count as being an incisive commentary about rape and what it means if a man makes it? Because women bloody know why men rape. Because they can. This mea culpa, I-knew-not-what-did schtick just doesn't wash with me. He knew. He knew then and he knows now. I think it's well-meaning (from Thordis anyway), but misguided, and it feels like another of these conversations where men tell us how complicated it is not to rape us. To which my response is always "no it fucking isn't".

I heard about this first from a newspaper article. I read their ages - 16 and 19 - the fact that she lost her virginity to him, and thought yep, that sounds like a recipe for rape and a general relationship power imbalance (which is often what leads to sexual abuse, I think).

I started watching the Ted talk and had to stop because it made me feel physically sick. Plus I'm pregnant and too delicate for that at the moment. Discussions about rape on the internet I can cope with, seeing a rapist up on stage talking about raping a child (ok I know she was 16 but that's hardly adult in the way 19 is) I just couldn't handle that.

I was first raped at 16 by a 20 year old boyfriend...cant help but wonder if the dynamic was similar...if part of the reason she drank so much that night is because she was looking up to her older, worldly wise boyfriend. Because she trusted him to stop her if she had too much (he clearly didn't) and/or look after her (like everyone thought it had).

It doesn't seem like accidental rape to me. It seemed like a manipulative older bloke taking advantage of a child. So this whole 'I never thought of it as rape' shit bothers me, because I bet he's also never thought of the whole relationship dynamic as abusive.

I know I'm massively projected. The whole thing just stinks to me.

One thing I have noticed is that in every case of alleged student acquaintance rape I have read about over the last year where the alleged victim had been drinking, the alleged perpetrator has been acquitted.

At least by this man admitting that he committed the crime of rape under these circumstances, circumstances under which no doubt even in the UK he would have been/still would most likely be acquitted without his confession, he has shown the public quite clearly that this sort of rape is happening under their noses.

He has also openly shown that the perpetrator can indeed be the 'nice' boyfriend/acquaintance who escorts a woman home to 'help them' because they are so drunk. Instead of the poor, confused, innocent, normal man who had been given consent that night, only to find the girl regretted it the next day and so was accusing him of rape.

At least this confession provides a proven example to, possibly, sow a seed of reasonable doubt to colour a jury's collective mind in favour of believing a future victim, in a rape trial.

This is not the same as saying that this man should be forgiven, or that anyone who has been raped can have their experience changed by such a confession. Though, I can only guess it might help a victim a little bit if their rapist at least admitted what he had done, instead of lying and making out that it was her fault and she had given consent.

These sorts of rapists usually have full back up of mates and the tacit sympathy of other men, and of women friends. In schools and colleges the victim is doubly betrayed by their own friends and acquaintances not believing them.

Just maybe, other men who have done the same, will wonder about themselves if they hear of this account. Maybe the women who believe these men have not raped, because they are their friend, because they nice, good looking etc, will think twice too.

What PoochSmooch said. With bells on.

Because patriarchy is a crap excuse.

Batteriesallgone sorry to hear about your rape. Your analysis is spot on IMO.

He's a manipulative rapist. So why are we listening to him saying he didn't realise it was rape? It's bollocks, pure and simple. It's feeding into this accidental rape bullshit and I hate it.

^ This. Totally.

He knew what he was doing. What has been described was not a fucking accident.

And if he is trying to get the message out to men, why were they speaking at WOW? Women already know that rape is a shirty thing to do, we don't need telling, thanks very much.

It occurs to me that what she has done is very clever in a number of ways.

She has got him to publically admit it. However many people who publically applaud his "bravery', "honesty", there will be others, in his real, lived life, who close certain doors to him, quietly and forever.

Getting him to admit it publically will also help slowly tear down the belief that 'nice' guys, 'attractive' guys don't 'need'/'want' to rape. That's still a massive barrier to justice.

It will make some men question their own perspective. Not ones who were likely to rape themselves. But ones who might have given a 'nice guy' friend or acquaintance the benefit of the doubt over a charge, dropped charge or rumour.

By this last bit I mean that. I think that a lot of rapists are serial, deceptive liars. They operate in a hideous murky mindset, and they keep social attitudes in a murky place by promulgating a fear mindset amongst the general male population about fear of rape accusations. It's a kind of gaslighting. They propagate a lie about rape accusation being common "it could happen to you too and destroy your life", as a kind of divide and rule.

But a lot of men will look at this and go "WTF? I would never do that to my girlfriend. I am nothing like that. How could he? There's no grey rea there. Throw the key away." And in the future it will be easier for them to believe that a guy like that could be a rapist. To realise they would never, ever even come close to doing something like that, so they aren't likely to be accused of rape.

But before, it was easy for them to think " I would never do that to a woman" and from that reason that this guy who seems like them would never do that either. We all see the world through our own mindset.

And rapists prey on that too. They know if they make men who wouldn't rape, scared of being accused of rape, then those men will be their unwitting allies.

Maybe any discussion about rape presented in any vaguely similar way needs to pay due reference to the trauma (more than just words), whether the speaker has moved beyond that or not, if it is not going to be painfully minimising for women listening

I think the book itself does do these things. Thordis is very explicit about the impact and long-term repercussions, which included PTSD, of Tom's actions. Perhaps this hasn't been a prominent aspect of the TED talk, which I haven't watched. But then I guess also that the Ted talks and media appearances that accompany the book would need trigger warnings if they included the book's most raw material.

Poochsmooch, Beachcomber, have you read the book? Because if you have you have taken very different things from it than I did. He doesn't try to justify his rape (I don't think) and he doesn't tell us how complicated it is not to rape. He quite simply says 'I wasn't thinking about you at all Thordis'.

I think KindDogsTail makes some really valid points. This discussion may have flaws but I think it's one that's very worth having. My male partner and male colleague are waiting to read the book after me, so it does hold interest for a male audience.

I wonder how our attitudes would be different if the harm he had caused her had not been sexual - if he had hit her with a car while blind drunk, damaged her beyond repair, got away Scot free in the eyes of the law, and was now undergoing the same act of introspection and reparation? Would we be less disgusted with him? Maybe that thought experiment is a blind alley...

I haven't read the book, quodlibet, so I accept that I may be missing some nuance. And I wouldn't say that it's not a conversation worth having. I think it is, but I remain to be convinced that he's the right person to lead the conversation, and that the conversation ends up being productive. Not sure, tbh.

batteries

BeachComber I am very very sorry that you were raped by your boyfriend you trusted, and i know there are no excuses.

Batteries & Beachcomber, I am sorry, I confused your names.

Thanks for the flowers guys but I talk about rape loads on mumsnet, I'm ok with it. As much as you ever can be really.

And womanwithaltitude has hit on what made me feel sick about the TED talk. All the women in the audience. It panned to a mostly female audience and I felt like shouting NO! You don't get to stand up in front of a load of women and talk about how you didn't realise it was rape. If they were targeting men I'd feel differently about it but women don't need to be told rape is shit. It felt...I don't know, it felt like an echo of his manipulative, abusive relationship with her tbh, to be earnestly standing in front of a big group of women saying how terrible rape is. Another way of sending himself up as the big man.

Again I appreciate I'm hugely projecting and haven't read the book. Just the gut reaction it evoked in me that made me feel sick.

But instead KindDogs are we getting "the poor, confused, innocent, normal man who"* didn't really mean to do a bad thing, thought he could because culture/conditioning etc, and is ever so sorry? And maybe let's rethink labelling me a rapist?
I'm not sure that helps with the jury/public perception or similar issues.

The person I had a bad experience with admitted it in a group of mutual friends on a boys weekend, in context of his reputation as being a bit of a bastard with the ladies. They all stayed friends. That admission did not help me feel better at all. Every friend who knew was another person telling me I didn't matter.
(It didn't occur to me until years later writing about it here that I missed a great chance to report him at that point).

Many years later there are parts of that night i remember clearly. I watched TED and the talk in its entirety made me feel i had got things out of proportion.

Maybe Tom Stranger should offer up his admission and himself to a criminologist or psychologist, whoever studies such things. That might be useful. I'd probably even have some respect. Because I expect there are some darker discoveries to be made in understanding a 2 hour sustained attack.

Quod fair enough, I'm commenting on the public appearances, not the book.

Batteries

Forgiveness is very overated.

I agree in may way Yopshimur but
all around us, there is an unexpectedly high proportion of men who are unreported rapists or would be, not even trying to get excused or explain themselves if this is what he is covertly doing.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/college-men-commit-rape-study_n_6445510.html

I agree he should be standing up in front of men not women as others said though. But maybe more men will read the book than will have listened to him.

I am very sorry for that bad experience with the "Bit of a bastard with the women" man and the friends. I hate to think how many of us keep friends with bad people, at the expense of the one who has been harmed by them. And I wonder if this admission on his part, added to a sense of his integrity and "charm" (shudder)?

It is part of those men's kudos and sometimes fallen for by women too - which is horrible. How can that attitude be undone? I agree this book does not sound as though it will help with that aspect. Maybe some men will even think Tom is 'wet'. Among themselves men use violent words about women, 'doing them good" "really giving it to them". etc. The two hours will seem a feat to some.

What is odd is women who think that way about men "Being a bit of a bastard" too. On the Andrew Marr show, a woman defended Poldark's raping as not being rape. It just added to his attraction. Clark Gable ( who actually did rape Loretta Young on a night when they went out together) carrying Vivien Leigh upstairs to [actually] rape her, in the GWTW, is another example.

Fascinated by the whole discussion and definitely agree it's a conversation that needs to be had. Does anyone know any men who have read the book and would like to come on the thread?!

The book has really challenged me. It's v interesting and a lot more detailed than the TED talk. I am interested in the fact that he was capable of this heinous act at 18, but by 27 after realising what he had done, he was overcome with guilt and could only perform sexually if the woman was in a dominant role, so he could be sure there was consent.

What happened between 18 and 27, did he harm any other women? And is his apparent transformation at age 27 replicable, could other offenders be rehabilitated similarly?

27 after realising what he had done, he was overcome with guilt and could only perform sexually if the woman was in a dominant role, so he could be sure there was consent.
What utter utter bullshit. God I would love to speak to some of his exes. Overcome with guilt my arse.

Batteries I missed the opportunity to acknowledge your experience, which I should have done. Apologies. I'm sorry you went through that.

I will watch the TED talk tomorrow to see if I can better understand your perspective.

Quentin is it inconceivable that a man could also be sexually affected by having committed an act of sexual violence? Particularly if the act is at odds with the values he perceived himself to hold?

Maybe quod. Or maybe he is trying to sell some books.
I think he's saying what people want to hear. Also to me it doesn't follow about being submissive to ensure consent. It seems more like a kink thing.
I find it deeply fishy. Also logically inconsistent. He raped someone in clear cut circumstances and admits this was down to entitlement. He had no come back for this. Why would he lose that entitlement and grow a conscience? Seems more likely to me he didn't and he's manipulative and saying what people want to hear. And some are falling for it and lining his pockets in the process.

Why does it not surprise me that a rapist would be into BDSM.

I haven't read the book and I don't want to as from the sounds of it I will find it upsetting and it will make me angry.

I don't want to read about his sex life, his guilt or his realisation that actions have consequences. And if his message is simply 'I wasn't thinking about you at all Thordis' I don't want to read that either as it is such a statement of the bleedin' obvious for a man to make about rape.

All I can take from this project is that I hope Thordis gets what she wants from it and that it remains a positive thing for her long term.

And if his message is simply 'I wasn't thinking about you at all Thordis' I don't want to read that either as it is such a statement of the bleedin' obvious for a man to make about rape.

Yes. I think most women realise that. How is it helpful? It's quite a dismissive message for rape survivors to be presented with.

I don't think that is his message. It is one line of explanation in a long complex narrative. Construing that statement as his 'message' is reductive.