When you know it is sexism / because you are a woman, but ...

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Not sure where I am going with this, but it has been sloshing around in my brain for a while now, so I thought I'd attempt a post.

Leaving aside those of us who have never experienced sexism or different / discriminatory / adverse / lesser (etc.) treatment because we are women, (in a desperate attempt to stop BTL comments), have women here experienced moments where 'something happens' and we know that it would have played out differently if we were men, but, it is hard to impossible to actually articulate how we are so sure of this, and to prove our case?

I seem to have encountered this rather a lot lately, and it is getting me down. Thing is, it's always events that feel sequential and connected to me, because they happen one after another and after my half century on this planet have all added up, but to others, they look like isolated events.

I've had conversations to that effect, which basically boil down to 'I have been treated badly because I am a woman' and the response has been 'it was just that one time', or 'just that one person and he's a knob', or 'you are over thinking it', or 'how do you know they would have treated you different if you were a man, or 'you always say that, it's because you are looking for sexism' or 'eyeroll'.

I could give examples, but I thought I'd see if there was any resonance first.

I think what I am ultimately aiming at is how do we articulate the patterned nature of these experiences and the cumulative effects they have on women, and how do we make people stop and think about this?

Not a problem paying for lunch, Batteries. I can expense it and charge it to him if he gives me the gig, anyway.

His emails to me would normally be "We're doing x, on y. Are you interested in z? Let me know a date to expect your proposal if so."
Bit hard to reply to that with an 'Come out for lunch and we'll discuss it?' but I probably need to try.

DH is wondering whether he's heard on the grapevine that we've got married and if that'll lead to any changes. But I know that that client won't even be thinking in terms of it being an unequal pitching process or anything sexist. It'll just be that he 'happens' to feel like he wants to have lunch more with DH because they have penises are on the same wavelength.

Unless the work is very prescriptive there's nearly always scope to have a casual discussion first. Especially if you've done work for them before so you don't need to prove a certain level of competence.

Do you really need to be putting in all the unpaid work you currently are in advance? I don't want to come across as a bitch but is there perhaps an element of you feeling you have something to prove / have to justify your right to pitch?

Oh and if he's getting a significant proportion of the project for free as part of your pitch he ain't gonna change without a push. Why would he? He can ride off the back of your freebies atm.

Quite a few where I have found it hard to get a meeting with/response from someone, and Mr A N Other has managed right away. Talking with people who seem to look behind you. I've a male colleague who thinks it's his skill which gives him credibility, but the people who actually look me in the eye and listen all find me very persuasive and effective!

This is why consciousness raising groups was so integral to kickstarting the women's movement back in the 70s, isn't it?

Because previously, women assumed and were told that things that happened to us were random. But when we got together and compared notes, we saw that it was the same "random" things happening to women all the time and it was a pattern. Once we could articulate the pattern it became political. In some ways the internet has taken over from consciousness raising groups.

Yes I agree. As NotCitrus said about the Everyday Sexism site it is really important to document these incidences.

It's not a significant proportion - a weeks work on a project of 3-12 months duration. My complaint isn't that I'm doing more than is standard in the industry so much that DH is expected to do notably less, if that makes sense? Most clients expect a verbal pitch, which is almost as much work as the proposal this client wants from me. The chat and immediate decision he offers DH is really very unusual. And until now we've never found a company that asks for different things from different freelancers for the same kind of work.

You're right that I do sometimes feel I have more to prove than DH would feel (I was a single parent until recently, and not able to travel because of that) but not, I think, in this situation.

Batteriesallgone, your example with the meetings reminded me of a place I used to work at.

A male colleague and I sometimes had to help out on the reception switchboard. We were both junior staff so completely equal and even the same age. When he answered the phone, he used a monotone and simply said "Bloggs Services, what department?"

But I had a whole script where I had to say "Good Morning, thank you for calling Bloggs Services, how may I help you?" And I had to sound friendly and pleasant, which invited chit-chat about the weather and crap which I had to respond to nicely. This was how I was trained and what was expected. If I had used the monotone like my colleague I would've been pulled up about it.

But emoting with your voice for 6+ hours is exhausting! I was literally doing double the work of my colleague all day, but it would never be acknowledged.

It's like the meeting you describe where the man gets to be his normal self, but the woman has to anticipate the needs of others and be discreet and fade away when appropriate. This is all emotional labour which isn't recognised at all as work.

There are four kindergarten classes in our local school. Three female teachers and one male one. We went on the school tour for parents of kindergarten students. The three female teachers told us about how they managed their classrooms, how they made the students feel happy and settled etc. The male stood up and told us categorically that he would have every child reading at the end of the year and no other kindergarten teacher could do that.

I was given a program to run at work and a male colleague called me and said "I can't lead this new program at the moment so I don't mind if you do the work but I'd like to be named as leader and I'll take over when I have time". I declined. Later I was invited to talk about my experiences in launching the program - entire purpose of the meeting was to pick my brains. I was asked a question and as I answered he interrupted and said "maybe someone else can get a word in if Pallisers would be quiet".

We were picking a team who would be given some extensive training. First cut was who were the best people - top two picks from each nominator. Then we looked at the demographics of the group - from enough sub-disciplines and locations and also to make sure they weren't all white men. First cut we looked at the demographics and it was very slightly more female than male. The kind of percentage that would not be a problem if it was a male/female ratio. But apparently it was a problem for the team to be majority female.

Agree with the comment about consciousness raising.

Here is a link for the helpful website for this topic, "Everyday Sexism": everydaysexism.com/ , already mentioned on this thread by other people. I think this website is a very good resource documenting the sexism faced by women and girls around the world, in our everyday lives.

I do not recommend the "Everyday Feminism" website, also mentioned on this thread. It has a very different agenda, featuring too much misogynistic content and it often prioritises male people over female people.

Back in the mid 1990s I had a male secretary for a year or two. Really uncommon then.

It afforded both of us endless hours of amusement. Although I was in my 50s (I am retired now) and he was only in his 20s it was astonishing how many men (and some women) who didn't know us could not possibly fathom that I was the boss and he was the secretary.

Occasionally I was irritated enough to offer the fact that I could even do joined up writing

This definitely resonates with me, it's a massive problem where I work and in my specific role. it's getting me down too and I have the same issues when I call it out. Something has happened very recently and I'm at screaming pitch.

I've made a conscious effort not to buy from people who behave like this.

One of the reasons we have our current car is because, after weeks of people talking to DH about things of which he has no clue, the bloke at Jaguar heard one comment from me and fetched his boss, who discussed suspension and superchargers with me while DH and the underling discussed paint colours. The only place that didn't have to do a double take.

I have been completely ignored in other places. DH just laughs and says, "your mistake mate, she's the expert" and we move on.

AAAAGH this drives me insane. Personal bugbears are 1) being expected to arrange team building events and socials. Never once seen a man get asked to do this and ofc it's not valued despite being a royal PITA 2) assumption you will be happy to minute meetings/share notes. Drives me mad.
The other day a guy I worked with decided to tell me all about how he's doing really well by talking through his ideas with the director, I can emulate his success by just talking to the director. The director looks at me like I'm pond scum and can barely manage a veneer of basic politeness (I have had to introduce myself 3 times). Yet my male manager totally can't comprehend the advantage he has just by the manager being prepared to listen for a minute. It's hard for me to see it as anything other than sexism

Somerville - I totally understand your frustration. Thing is, I don't think so much that equality should be achived by you being invited to lunch as it should by a transparency of process where everyone is required to put in bids of a similar nature / scope. That way, the potential for homosociability is minimised and everyone is on a more equal footing (probably not entirely, but still).

Batteries - Do you really need to be putting in all the unpaid work you currently are in advance? I don't want to come across as a bitch but is there perhaps an element of you feeling you have something to prove / have to justify your right to pitch ... I have two responses here. First, and I don't mean to pick on you, but this supports the kinds of unfair treatment we are talking about by blaming the woman and side-stepping the fundamental issue that women are treated unequally. Also, when given a project, I often think, based on past experience, that I do have something to prove, because I know, from past experience, that as a woman more will be expected of me and I will be held to a higher standard. In Somerville's case this is exemplified by the fact that she is expected to do the work in the first place. My feeling is that when women think they have more to prove it is generally because this reflects the reality that they actually do have more to prove!

Here is a link for the helpful website for this topic, "Everyday Sexism": everydaysexism.com/ , already mentioned on this thread by other people. I think this website is a very good resource documenting the sexism faced by women and girls around the world, in our everyday lives

Yes - a great website for raising the old blood pressure ... but it is generally about everyday sexism, though, in all its forms.

I think what I am biting at here, more specifically, are instances where women are treated differently and in ways that are lesser, more demeaning, provide less opportunity, etc. etc. than men, because they are women, but where it is hard to actually prove this.

How about expectations?

MIL, whom I love dearly, is sending me idea after idea and link after link of things for us to do when we visit them next week, packing tips ("don't bring too much"), requests for a shopping list so she can make sure they are stocked up with food and toiletries that we like. Extremely nice of her but
(1) She wouldn't even think of sending any of this stuff to DH, her son. The expectation is clearly that I am the mum, the woman, therefore in charge of all the Wifework like packing and planning family days out and knowing what brand of shampoo my 13 year old likes, and
(2) FIL has Not. One. Clue. about any of this stuff - expectation being that a man of his generation does not need to bother his head about caring about these things or being a good host. So MIL has a Wifework expectation on her, too.

Hope that makes sense.

The head of our organisation tends to accuse staff of being too emotional (it is on an emotive subject). We've started to notice...he only ever says that to female staff, never to male...

Regarding 'something to prove' I know it's because if sexist attitudes and wasn't trying to say it isn't.

But the fact remains that if we women don't challenge it who will? If I knew that a man in my industry was giving men work off the back of lunches I would damn sure be inviting him for lunch and doing what I could to make it known I knew what was going on.

I saw it when I worked -women would say oh Man A expects women to write the pitch (the work) and men to give it (the credit). I would just say...no and challenge it. Because if not me then who? It's not right to be subject to sexism and to have to challenge it but refusing to play the game of second class citizen is important I think.

I agree Batteries, but IME when you do challenge it there's a serious backlash so you have to be prepared for that. In many cases women can't afford to risk that backlash.

I was going through the lost property at school yesterday when a Dad and his 6yo Dd come along.

Bit of chit chat re lost property then he says "it's the mothers fault all this lost property." Yeah I bit.

Apparently women drop children off at school, and are trained to look after clothes and if they don't they aren't doing their jobs properly - stream of bullshit stuff.

I said I think the word he was looking for was parent, and anyway no one has super powers to avoid kids losing clothes.

He insisted it was mothers work and mothers fault. And mothers take children to school! Oh the irony.

Then his daughter piped up "but dad you bring me to school and you look after my clothes with mum too" and she blinked at him questioning.

I mentally fist pumped her.

And added him to the "dickhead" spreadsheet.

Well done that DD!

Like the cognitive dissonance of a man pushing a pram but objecting to boys playing with buggies and doll babies.

Like the cognitive dissonance of a man pushing a pram but objecting to boys playing with buggies and doll babies.

My mother bought my son an ironing board (and Hoover and toy kitchen) when he was a toddler that he was delighted with.

MiL was aghast. DM politely (icily) pointed out 'well, how else he going to learn how to take care of himself?' MIL opened her mouth to reply, glanced at me, then mumbled something incoherent and went off.

Like the cognitive dissonance of a man pushing a pram but objecting to boys playing with buggies and doll babies.

My mother bought my son an ironing board (and Hoover and toy kitchen) when he was a toddler that he was delighted with.

MiL was aghast. DM politely (icily) pointed out 'well, how else he going to learn how to take care of himself?' MIL opened her mouth to reply, glanced at me, then mumbled something incoherent and went off.

Batteries Yes, I understand your point. He hasn't approached me or DH with work since we learned this - it would leave a very nasty taste in my mouth to be doing work that DH doesn't have to do. I don't think I would/could. But I also have to pay the bills and I can't afford to piss someone off who could badmouth me. I need to handle it carefully whenever he's next in touch.

DH and I have for the first time ever been asked to pitch for the same project (on the same terms!) and we're currently engaged in an amusing discussion over whether to compete with each other or one of us bow out. When we discussed this theoretically we thought it would be fun to compete, but now he's backing out! wuss