Uni's warned over 'snowflake' demands.

[FriendofBill]

Hi all,
Saw this article in the telegraph & thought of you.
First became alerted/concerned over the Tara Hudson prison lunacy.
At least there seems to be some kind of push back here?
Surprised to see an article anyway

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/08/universities-warned-snowflake-student-demands/

I think it's a small (yet very vocal, and all over social media) minority of students who are determined to make snowflake type demands.

It's a different issue to the apathetic students who are just there because that's what you do after school. Mine are apathetic regardless what you teach them. In fact, they tend to be more interested in a class if you're talking about something like infanticide than if it's a less tabloid-scandal type of topic. doesn't mean they'll read anything though

It just seems like students don't want to be challenged, they see opinion as fact and surround themselves with people who share only their opinion, in real life and online. And throw an tantrum if someone challenges that belief.

Banning newspapers, safe spaces, no platforming. It's kind of scary that a vocal small minority of students are almost sensering any opinion that they don't agree with.

I think we all did stupid things, and held stupid opinions, when we were 18.

And I'm fairly sure if the internet had been what it is now, there would have been a vocal minority when I was a student, who'd have had some strong response to it (positive or negative). As it was we just got very excited when it wasn't dial-up.

I don't know if it 'means' anything much, what (some) students do. It matters if they keep doing it.

But these 18 YO are considered adults (wasn't there such angst about 16/17 yo not being able to vote because in their opinion they are so adult nowadays and worldly-wise, savvy)
If the education they receive is not fit for purpose they should be campaigning for better education for what they are paying.

"At uni (20 years ago), if a topic was considered to be poorly taught, tough shit - go to the library and figure it out"

But now that you are paying £27k it seems reasonable to expect adequate teaching, I would have thought. Or some of your money back.

But now that you are paying £27k it seems reasonable to expect adequate teaching, I would have thought. Or some of your money back

To be honest, I only experienced one or two poor 'teachers' at uni. I didn't expect teachers as such, though (like I phad in school). I expected lecturers who were knowledgable about their subjects and who were able to lecture on this, as well as tutors who were able to facilitate discussion, usually based on a paper or two from students. We were expected to go to the library to supplement this and to facilitate informed opinions. Going to the library was part of learning to research and learn independently.

These days it is more about spoon feeding and entertaining the students, who think that they have experienced poor teaching if they are challenged to be independent in any way or have their own dearly held worldviews challenged. Most don't read even set texts, let alone go to the library or download e-books. It is very sad. They also expect high grades and blame teaching staff if they fall short. The best way to good evaluations comprises of guest speakers and films as well as activity based classes and marking that is softer than warm butter. Topics that are mildly risqué, such as sex, suicide and scandals help, although a teacher must never push them to think outside the box, or challenge the dominant thinking of social media on any of these topics.

I just don't think that's fair or true.

I'm sure it varies from place to place, but I know a lot of people across the UK who would disagree, and not just me.

As for saying there's been a seachange because students expect to be 'entertained' ... isn't it a bit holier-than-thou to suggest students of the past (us!) never did?

My DD is in the middle of applying to unis, and her expectation is that she will have to work very hard in labs, independently, and problem sheets/tutorials etc and earn her degree... and at the end have actually acquired useful knowledge and skills.

Somehow I think she's going to have a more interesting time than the ones yet describes. If there really are courses like that for which students are racking up debt, maybe its time that uni expansion was drastically reined in.

maybe its time that uni expansion was drastically reined in

Yes ... I think that is the elephant that few will actually name. But you are assuming that the aim of universities is to produce knowledge, well-qualified grads, etc. I don't think it is anymore. It is to make money, and nothing will be reined in whilst the cash is coming in.

I didn't expect to be entertained as a student. It was nice I was, but it wasn't a core expectation. Learning was. These days, entertainment steadily comes first, in my experience. Milady's experiences ring true to me. I've known many in degrees that qualify students for human centred professions to walk / take early retirement because they are so fed up and tired of feeling compromised.

"Most don't read even set texts..."
Let's keep in the mind the 'usual' yawning divide between arts and the sciences. But even then, my science undergrads do expect (well, the ones that like to complain anyway) to have not just hand-outs at lectures, but specific hand-outs with all that you said in the actual lecture, and a pod-cast, and slides available online, and a scan of bits of any books you suggested they read.................

They seem to want tangible complete materials for their dosh!

LRD: I think I might have said much the same as you before he came to work in the post-92 end up of the sector.

When I say they only want to be entertained, I mean that if you aren't doing stand up comedy (preferably with a slap stick segment), they get annoyed. If it were just that they expected an interesting and informative lecture, I'd be delighted. But a large proportion of my students do not want to be informed. And they certainly do not want to examine their assumptions.

They get an electronic reading list so they do not have to look up anything. They just click to access the set reading. We have the chapters digitised for them. We provide handouts and PowerPoints and lecture videos and use software so they don't have to speak up in class (and to provide notes of the seminar because at least half of them don't have a pen even if they wanted to take notes themselves. But they still won't read or engage.

TBH, if it were just students like this, I think it'd be easier. I'd just put in as little effort as they do. But there are some students who are really trying and I feel terrible that they're stuck in a sea of apathy and wilful ignorance.

Incidentally I'm not sure that many of my students will ever pay back even a penny of their loans.

All this super sensitivity being foisted on our young will only lead to more dangerous decisions being made further down the line, by those shielded from the school of hard knocks.. They becomep easily led...

Don't worry we are already experiencing the school of hard knocks a gutted welfare system, dysfunctional housing market and no prospect of ever retiring. Thank goodness were aren't as easily led as our predecessors who would vote to leave the EU on a few baseless promises without a plan.

This is hyperbole, there isn't a generation young people demanding to be shielded and molly coddled, this just isn't true. I saw an article blaming generation snowflake for the drop in army recruitment. Yep nothing to with growing up witnessing an illegal war which killed a million Iraqis and destabilised a region. The term generation snowflake is used to make ad hominem attacks on young people.

That sounds really depressing, milady. And to be clear, what I was objecting to was the implication (as I read it) that these were comments about all students, or a product of a certain kind of experience everyone aged 18-21 has. And they're not, I think? I reckon if we could all time-travel back we'd find the same groups of annoying people everywhere.

No not all students. I did say 'most' in my post, though, and I stand by that. There are also institutional imperatives toward spoon-feeding and entertaining rather than teaching. I don't blame the students really. I do think that the current generation is very different from the previous two at least, as far as we can speak in generational terms, but that's what we did to them in shaping them and their educational experiences. I expect the current emphasis on testing will produce differences again in those coming through school.

Um ... to be picky, you actually said 'students' and kept the qualifier for one comment thereafter. Which is why I read your comment as a general one.

But, ok, I take your point that it's more complicated than just students' views.

No definitely not all students. It's not even all my students. I don't want to claim to be speaking about anything other than my direct experiences with a particular group of students (who I don't think or at least hope aren't entirely representative of students at my university).

I do think that there are structural forces that have created the conditions for students like mine though. It is actually awful that so many young people are given the impression that university is the only choice regardless whether you want to learn or it will serve you in what you want to do.

At least once a year I have to meet with at least one of my personal tutees whose story is basically that their school and/or their parents just expected them to go to university but they never really wanted to. They don't like studying and aren't interested and in fact what they wanted to do was something they could have got an apprenticeship in after their GCSEs. But they were told this wasn't good enough.

It's horrible because was they want to do is valuable (if not well paid) and would make them happier. And crucially they wouldn't waste a year (or two or three because it's not just first years) of university funding that they might have decided they wanted to use in 5 or 10 or whatever years if they decided they wanted a university education.

It's ridiculous that we have schools who are desperate to get as many kids into universities as they can (for their stats) regardless whether it's appropriate for the individual kids. And we have parents who've been sold a lie that a university education is the be all and end all and will get their child a secure well paid job so they push reluctant kids into it believing they're doing the best thing.

It is actually awful that so many young people are given the impression that university is the only choice regardless whether you want to learn or it will serve you in what you want to do.

I agree with that so strongly.