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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Want to promote ' The Power' as it's a fascinating feminist novel!

46 replies

Destinysdaughter · 24/12/2016 02:19

It's being promoted by MN at the moment but there's not been many takers so I'd like to mention it on here as its a fascinating take on what society would be like if women did have the power and I want to discuss it with all you brilliant feminists on here...!!😀

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DeviTheGaelet · 29/12/2016 12:42

Wow what an interesting woman!

JoeJoe80 · 29/12/2016 21:57

Is a society where there is true equality just too difficult to envisage?

I think that's the really interesting question raised by the book - and it's not one to which there is an easy answer.

What probably stands in the way of equality is a gothic desire, deep down in human beings, to subjugate, victimise and humiliate others. Of course most of us have a stronger good side, but the barbaric side is there within all of us. As Freud said this dark side is mostly either repressed or 'sublimated' (so rather than express violence directly someone might channel it into aggressive punk rock, or become a boxer).

So far, this atavistic violence has mainly been expressed by men and culturally identified with them because they have had all the power. Women are assumed to be innately nurturing, kind and incapable of violence. When one of them does do terrible things - like Myra Hindley or Rose West - they are assumed to be mystically evil aberrations.

But as women gain more power it is reasonable to assume they will use that power to express the darker side of human nature as much as the noble side. T. This isn't an argument against feminism, because I think rather than a reverse dominance forming (as The Power envisages), misuse of power will level out between the genders. Equality would mean both roughly equivalent men and women using their power to do good, but also to do evil. There will be more and more Malala Yousafzai’s, but also more Rose West’s

I think one message of the book is that with power comes moral responsibility. Power can be a good thing, but it can be a terrible thing too. We all need to recognise that there is barbarism deep down within us.

RachelMumsnet · 02/01/2017 13:58

[quote Destinysdaughter]Here's an interview with her, doesn't shed much light on her feminism but gives some insight into her influences. I do hope she does a webcast on MN!

www.theguardian.com/books/2016/oct/28/naomi-alderman-interview-the-power[/quote]

Hi Destinysdaughter, I'm so pleased to see this thread up on feminist boards and that you're enjoying this book as much as we did. As you see we selected this as book of the month for January and the author, Naomi Alderman is indeed joining us for a webchat on Monday 23 January between 9 and 10pm on this thread. Do join us for what I'm sure will be a really interesting discussion. I'll post up a reminder on this thread a couple of days before.

doublex · 09/01/2017 19:50

Thanks for flagging this novel. I am now half way through and have been absolutely engrossed. I understand the author was mentored for a year by Margaret Atwood.

M0stlyHet · 09/01/2017 20:23

Place marking to get this back on my active list!

MysticTwat · 09/01/2017 20:24

Looks interesting thank you, will order it.

DeviTheGaelet · 09/01/2017 21:49

It's awesome
Ive viewed some of the claims on recent threads in a totally different light since reading it!

Hygellig · 10/01/2017 16:26

I found it thought-provoking to consider a world in which men are always afraid of women, who have the power electrocute them with their hands. Male violence towards women would be eliminated overnight. It was also interesting to consider the implications of this in very patriarchal societies like Saudi Arabia. Although the sudden population-wide evolution of such a power is pure fantasy.

Spoilers ahead I was disappointed that the women ended up being just as violent as men, if not much more so. I also wondered about transwomen - would they be entitled to skein transplants? Would men contrive to get a skein transplant, possibly using brutal means like Darrell?

M0stlyHet · 10/01/2017 17:39

Can I nudge people to come on over to the webchat thread and come up with questions for Naomi? So far there's only 23 posts on there, and it would be nice, seeing as most of us seem to have found the book fascinating, to ask a few more questions...

qwerty232 · 10/01/2017 18:45

It's a super book. Thought-provoking, gripping and really deftly spaced. Most British novels these days are so etiolated and parochial in their concerns, so it's really refreshing to read one that has something big to say.

I'd never heard of Alderman before and only became aware of the book when I chanced upon a review in the Guardian. Will be sure to check out some of her other stuff.

DeviTheGaelet · 10/01/2017 19:55

I have my question ready just not posted yet

boldlygoingsomewhere · 10/04/2017 19:53

Just bumping this as I've just finished it. Really enjoyed this and was cheering the women on who were rising up against the most awful oppression. The trafficked women in particular. It made me feel quite despairing that there are girls and women in that situation at the moment with no way out. Sad

It was very thought-provoking and I actually think it was quite a clever way to show how women are actually treated. It should be just as shocking for us now that women are treated like the men were treated in the novel. There needs to be a zero-tolerance campaign against male violence towards women. It depresses me that I don't think I'll see any change in my lifetime.

PoochSmooch · 11/04/2017 07:02

I also read it recently and I did not love it...

For me, it was just a bit too neat of a reversal. Like the author wanted to go point by point through stuff that men use to control women - from religion, violence and intimidation, down to a sort of patronising head-patting - and then show women doing the same to men. I guess that might be what would happen, but I found it a bit obvious and clunky. Maybe I'm labouring under some delusion, but I'm not sure that women would use power in the same way that men do?

But what really turned me off was the religious aspect to it (I see from the article above that the author is quite religious). I just didn't buy into the concept that God is female, and that religion holds the answers, which was very much the sense I got, though possibly I've misunderstood that, as by the end I was sort of flicking through it muttering "God, again, really?".

This may be my deficiency rather than the book's Grin

CharlieSierra · 11/04/2017 07:24

I felt the same Pooch, I was really keen to read it and didn't enjoy it at all and for pretty much the same reasons you describe. I had to force myself to finish it in the end.

PoochSmooch · 11/04/2017 07:28

Glad I'm not alone, Charlie! I was reading through it thinking, "I'm misunderstanding this, amn't i? There's something here I'm not getting".

I had very much been looking forward to a rollicking feminist read, and I was a bit disappointed.

CharlieSierra · 11/04/2017 07:41

I was looking forward to a good feminist read too but, I'm not sure it's feminist - how is saying that if women somehow got hold of all that power they would behave as badly as men or worse feminist? That was my take on it. Maybe I'm missing the point too.

PoochSmooch · 11/04/2017 07:50

Mmm, exactly. I'm not a huge believer that women are necessarily morally superior to men, but I think it's simplistic to say we'd use power in the same way and all it takes is to remove men's physical dominance.

Also, for my money, organised religion is the moral enforcement arm of patriarchal power. I can't think of an example of organised religion that doesn't centre, elevate or reinforce male dominance, and that's not a coincidence. If you don't want or need to enforce female subordination, control female sexuality and reproduction, then you've lost a huge element of what religion is even for.

Haven't you?

QuentinSummers · 11/04/2017 16:31

I loved it, I'm not religious at all. I liked how Tunde became scared of women. And I liked the neatly flipped evopsych narrative at the end. I also liked Mother Eve saying "you can't get there from here....burn it all down". Made me think about the potential futility of feminism and what radical feminism could actually mean.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 11/04/2017 19:39

My understanding of some of the write ups was that it wasn't supposed to be 'This is what would happen if women have the power'

It was more' this is what happens now'

I dont remember where i read that though

Destinysdaughter · 11/04/2017 20:04

I agree, I felt disappointed that women turned out to be just as bad as men once they'd got the 'power', and in the webcast with the author I did ask her about this and whether it was too hard to envisage a world where those in power used it for good. However, it does somewhat answer the question as to why men behave the way they do? Simply because they can. I'd like to see a novel where women were in power and used it for good. Does this exist?

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Destinysdaughter · 11/04/2017 20:06

I guess all science fiction is actually just another way of getting us to reflect on our current society by getting us to imagine a different one and hopefully making us question what is 'normal'?

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