AA Gill and misogyny and homophobia....

[PacificDogwod]

Ok, don't all shout at me at once, but I am up for a lively debate and/or to be educated.

I did not want this conversation on the other thread as he a. is dead and b. has bereaved family including young children and it just seemed in poor taste.

I have always enjoyed his writing, often disagreed with his content (I am German, a Hun - need I say more?!) but did enjoy his way with words and found him funny, acerbic and often prepared to say deeply uncomfortable things.
There is no doubt in my mind that he was a deeply flawed individual and was screwed up enough to keep a psychoanalyst in work for decades, but (and here it comes) I read his famous remark that Prof Mary Beard was 'too ugly for TV' as not a sexist slur about her appearance but a scathing indictment about just how superficial TV was, how no matter how brilliant or qualified you were to present a program, if you did not have the required looks the medium would reject you.
Similarly, the whole 'Dyke on a Bike' quip about Clare Balding I took as a critique of the program which he felt was boring and the most interesting thing about it was the presenter and her sexuality and how wonderfully the two rhymed (I gather there is a parade in Australia where the phrase may have originated from?). I have never seen the program, I have no idea how good or bad it was.

Reading some of his articles that popped up when I searched 'AA Gill' and 'misogyny' about pregnancy, children's sexuality, women I found insightful, honest and raw.

He was no doubt a product of his upbringing, his alcoholism, his dyslexia, had chips the size of the Rockies on both shoulders and could destroy with a sharp turn of phrase although his ire was usually reserved for the deserving IMO. His humanity and deep compassion is clear to me when he writes about famine and refugees for instance.

So, what am I missing? Please don't bring up the sodding baboon - I have a different take on that too, but am mainly interested in the misogyny angle.
I think he loved women, was terrified of them, wanted/needed to be loved more than was healthy, but did not hate them.

I didn't like AA Gill. Didn't rate his writing or the personality that came across in it. But because of this I'm not interested enough to want to discuss him, tbh.

Really interesting post, Pacific. I always felt conflicted, as I loved his style and compassion, but disliked much of his content, iyswim?

Fair enuff, Prawn

Same here, Smart.

He clearly had one or two brain cells to rub together, and can be so eloquent in his description of human suffering, that I take some of his more outrageous statements about women as firmly tongue in cheek. Or, more likely, made to hold up a mirror to everybody who holds those views.

As an aside, I am not sure I liked his writing as particularly literary but he did have an impressive array of unexpected metaphors which I enjoyed - yes, I am easily amused.

He was a complex character and clearly got a thrill from saying shocking things (did you ever read his infamous condemnation of the Welsh? or his appallingly bad sex-obsessed novel Sap Rising?). Plus he used to hang around with Jeremy Clarkson which is never a great sign.

But at his best he was incredibly sharp and insightful. There should be room in our society for people like him, as long as they get challenged when they behave like arses.

No, the JC association is almost enough to put me off - grim!

Nope, I've not read Sap Rising, but have read enough about it that I am not bothered.
Will read some of his travel reportage again - I remember his piece about the Sudan to have touched me at the time (I had just been back from Africa myself).

The Welsh thing? Yes, that and his going on about just how appalling ALL Germans are - I dunno, it was just so OTT that, again, when I read it at the time and again now, my interpretation was that he was getting every imaginable prejudice and cliché out there to highlight quite how ridiculous that was.
Oh, and I think he was needy and envious and insecure to the nth degree and was trying very, very hard to get noticed and to get a reaction.

I have a naughty dog who comes and steals a furry sofa cushion when he's bored because he knows he'll get a reaction; I suspect that Gill had more brains than my daft hound!

He was once married to Amber Rudd.

Yes I agree Pacific, I think you put it really well. I was talking to someone about this yesterday and we concluded that we completely disagreed with a great deal of what he wrote but were very glad that he wrote it, nonetheless.

I don't know whether this weirdo year has made me reflect more than I otherwise would, but it feels to me like it's good to have your viewpoint challenged by someone who can't be knocked down easily or put into a little box and then dismissed. It's good to see that clever, witty, articulate people can have views that are, in some places, quite different to mine (which are fairly smug middle class liberal wishy washy etc etc), while being very similar in others. I'm glad that his voice was out there and am saddened that there's nobody I can really see to replace it.

Incidentally, this post by Esther McCoren (wife of Giles Coren) almost made me cry on the way to work this morning: onthespike.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/adrian/ I'm still not quite sure why.

I did not want this conversation on the other thread as he a. is dead and b. has bereaved family including young children and it just seemed in poor taste.

Fair dos, but he's still dead, still has a young bereaved family and he hasn't even been dead a week.

So still pretty poor taste TBH.

Oh for heaven's sake, Manumission - AA Gill would have loved this thread! He was always off stabbing some sacred cow or other. And he would have enjoyed the attention, too.

Ok, just to address one of your points....Mary Beard comment.....everyone knows that there are many, many ugly blokes on tv. Ugly men on tv = common, ugly women, rare. So I disagree with you on that. And I don't believe her was referring to any double-standard, just being a bit of an arsehole.

I was thinking more of the two DC that are old enough to be googling.

And fwiw, Mary Beard really isn't ugly.

So are you saying that he was offensive to (for example) Mary Beard and Clare Balding because he was a tireless campaigner against the shallowness, misogyny and homophobia of the mainstream media?

I imagine AA Gill's adult children are fairly robust and appreciate that their father wasn't exactly St Francis of Assisi.

In the incredibly unlikely chance that they are reading this, though, there was rather a nice memory of Gill from a commenter under Esther wife-of-Giles' piece:

"In the early nineties I took a couple of patients for a drink at one of AA Gill’s well-known haunts and I saw him sitting there.. My dining companions had AIDS and it was obvious what they were suffering from if you knew what to look for. When we went to pay the bill, it had been settled. By him."

I have nothing of intellect to add the this discussion but (Welsh) DH would like me to say that he was right about the Welsh. And Rhyl.

Interesting thread OP. I loved his style and turn of phrase. He was clearly incredibly talented and extraordinarily bright. But just because someone is bright doesn't make them a nice person or even tolerant - the reasons why he was controversial are probably numerous but I suspect some of it was to do with the fact it sold newspapers. Also, if he was anything like my DH he may have enjoyed it.

The only person who can really answer these questions is his wide.

MrLemon

He was very astute about (some) Germans or German traits too...

SpongeBob, no, he was IMO trying to point out how ludicrous it was to suggest Prof Beard was not suitable to present that program based on her looks. And of course, neither Gill nor anybody else ever passes comment on how visually pleasing a male presenter may or may not be.

Manu, I take your point.
I did not know that man, and I am sorry for the loss his children have suffered.
But I think his writing is out there in the public domain so are fair game for dissection.

I agree with him on Brexit here but of course his description of 'Britannia's mother in law' is interesting: outrageously woman-hating or astute? Because, yes, I totally recognise her!
Of course there is a male equivalent which Gill did not chose to describe.

"no, he was IMO trying to point out how ludicrous it was to suggest Prof Beard was not suitable to present that program based on her looks"

I think that interpretation is so incredibly naive and generous that I wonder whether you would be interested in buying this big bridge over the Thames I happen to have for sale.........

Incidentally, it is not how Mary Beard herself took it.

I'm good for bridges, thanks!

Yes, I know that MB found it rude - and it was.

I accept that I may be going out of my way to justify my liking of his acerbic stuff

I don't know whether this weirdo year has made me reflect more than I otherwise would, but it feels to me like it's good to have your viewpoint challenged by someone who can't be knocked down easily or put into a little box and then dismissed. It's good to see that clever, witty, articulate people can have views that are, in some places, quite different to mine (which are fairly smug middle class liberal wishy washy etc etc), while being very similar in others. I'm glad that his voice was out there and am saddened that there's nobody I can really see to replace it.

I didn't realise this was how I felt about it, but it is.

Yes, I can identify with that too, Jassy.

Thanks for putting it in to words, Frei.

The thing is, if, when reviewing Meet the Romans, Gill intended to challenge the double standard under which women presenting television programmes must be young, attractive and groomed, while men can quite easily be elderly and scruffy, wouldn't he have said so? As I recall, the piece said no such thing, it simply attacked Beard for being insufficiently attractive. It wasn't a piece of cultural commentary, it was a vile personal attack. There was no ulterior motive, he was simply being deeply unpleasant and horribly misogynistic.

I think one of the the most important things to consider is the fact that he suffered from alcoholism, an incredibly complex and devastating condition that will have eventually coloured all of his thoughts and social interactions - especially as it is a progressive illness. It's particularly relevant to his insecurity and neediness and the immaturity that led him to make remarks of the 'ugly' Mary Beard/anti-German nature.

thanks Jassy and Pacific!

Furry I'd tend to agree with you on Gill's motivation, but the thing is that those views are fairly widespread, they're just not usually expressed so explicitly (or in the context of such amusing writing, though not in themselves amusing).

I would MUCH prefer that they are put out there by intelligent, articulate people to be debated, to explain again why it's not right to think things like this, to remind ourselves about the depth and breadth of misogyny in society and, perhaps, to prompt us to think about why that misogyny might be so widespread and how we might need to change our approach if we want to eradicate it, than to have bland little 'common sense' remarks like 'oh, wouldn't we all just prefer to have a Man of the Year' that are so much harder to engage with.

I honestly don't think we'll ever be in a society where those views don't exist, in some form or another, and I'd rather have them in the open where I can see them, engage with them, refine my thinking and arguments, than hidden away because people don't dare to speak or because they don't intrude on my broadsheet-reading, BBC watching world view.

That's why I'll miss him. He made me think. That can NEVER be a bad thing.