women in STEM

[Lorelei76]

apparently this was set up to challenge stereotypes

all I can see is it reinforcing them?

what do others think?

www.womanthology.co.uk/tired-gender-stereotypes-stem-careers-set-publishing-company-change-next-generations-perceptions-kerrine-bryan-engineer-founder-butterfly-books/

How is it reinforcing them?

because it's written about "my mummy"

so woman must = mother

there are lots of ways books like that could be presented, why this way?

maybe I'm missing something and there is a "My daddy" series?

It's written from the point of view of a child explaining what their Mummy does....I'm sure there are plenty of books explaining what a child's daddy does...This is just evening the playing field, and (in this I agree with her) opening up children's eyes to the wealth of jobs out there besides the traditional kid favorites: police officer, fire fighter, doctor etc.

I think I see your point but the "my daddy" series would be redundant as those really are the male dominated jobs. Making my mummy books just seeks to normalise or destigatise women in STEM.

As for it being framed as a parent, I don't know how else it could framed. My parent (woman) is an engineer. ?

But I might be missing the bigger picture here in what you are saying.

It's marketed at children, who by definition will most likely have a Mummy.

They'll be able to relate it to their own lives. Reading such a book at an early age hopefully won't result in them having that lightbulb moment at 15 or 16, when they realise that women can be engineers, but rather they'll grow up just accepting it as a norm. I think that's the idea and I like it.

I work in STEM and have been into my son's primary school during Science week. I really like to think that some of the girls will see that normal people like me can do science. They see me at the school, they see my out running, they see me at the park with my son and now they also know that I have a science job.

I bought loads of books about science for my god daughter and didn't find women were under represented - you can imagine, being me, I looked them over carefully before buying them.

this seems to be starting from the premise that a woman must have a child. It could easily have been "I want to be a ..."

I don't know enough about the children's book market, maybe it is a huge step forward but if it is, and if children's books still mostly show male doctors and plumbers, that's a pity.

There is a personal element for me in that woman = mother is the most problematic of stereotypes (I'd argue not just for me actually) but then again that's a problem at the core of the feminism.

sorry that's all a bit heavy for Monday morning and I'm looking after mum today so if the discussion gets longer and I'm not back, please bear with me, I'll be back eventually..!

I'm a mother, and work in STEM (and like rights, have been into DS's primary school to talk about my job and do demos - fantastic fun). All books aimed at children tend to try to move from the general to the particular to make a point in terms of what children have around them - so "this woman (no identifying particulars) is a scientist" wouldn't make much of a book for kids, "my mum is a scientist" does (and also helps handle any of the lingering Janet-and-John only role for a mother is making cakes and kissing boo-boos - though perhaps to destigmatise current attitudes to SAHM, there should also be one along the lines of "my mum was a mathematician, she's taking a career break, but she'll go back to it when I'm old enough").

I think the book series sounds great. DS flips between thinking my job is pretty cool, and rolling his eyes (and announcing he wants to be a banker....)

I think the book series sounds great too.

Sorry, cross posted with you, Lorelei. I think I see your issue a bit more - but the point I was trying to make when I said that that books for children needed to be rooted in particular people was that you need books that match up with someone they can see in the world around them. So maybe as well as "my mum's a scientist", "my aunt's a scientist" where the aunt might not have children of her own might fit your brief - but if the person becomes too detached from what the child sees in their own life, then it ceases to work as subtle inspiration. (Funnily enough a colleague of mine said this a propos of our inspirational speakers programme at work - we need less incredibly high flying people we haven't a hope in hell of emulating and more "here's how I managed to juggle children/caring responsibilities/carving out time to volunteer in community projects and still get a paper in Nature" from people whose lives look believable like our own). It's a big issue when it comes to race too - whether science, or all white corps-de-ballet, symphony orchestras, casts in the local panto, pictures of the cabinet sitting round the cabinet table in 10 Downing St.

There are general books about science and books specifically targeting kids about possible careers. Quite often, when talking about careers to young children, you approach it from a "My Mommy does..." or "My Daddy does..." That's why career days are important.

this seems to be starting from the premise that a woman must have a child.

Or that a woman can be both a mother and a professional in a STEM field?

Wouldn't books that start with "My Daddy is..." not starting with the premise that a man must have a child?

Het True! We had a series called Sex in Science don't even get me started on why they called it Sex in Science, that's a whole other rant
where women at the top of their field were invited to speak to us about how they made it.

Couldn't relate to any of them! They were either very, very rich, had partners with incredible salaries, packed the kids off to boarding school at age 10 or made an active choice not to have children. That's what worked for them and that's fine, but it didn't really motivate us as we slunk back to our desks, clock watching and wondering about what to cook for dinner

I think perception is a big issue - many people don't actually know what engineering or IT roles involve, and there is such a variety of different jobs available these days So she's right there needs to be more education there.

Then there's the question of actually seeing women in these roles, and often, they just aren't there. Certainly I don't feel it's possible for me to get a promotion in my current role - there's just one other woman in my direct reporting line and she'said from the US. If I could see at least one woman more locally who had been promoted sometime, I'd at least feel it might be possible in a technical role.

I don't like the title though - it just emphasises it's a bit unusual (at best) to be a mother and an engineer. It would be better to have a story where the mother happened to be an engineer, and that what she did as a job is somehow relevant to the story, like helps solve a problem or something. But I've not actually read the book, so I could be misjudging it

this seems to be starting from the premise that a woman must have a child.

Or that a woman can be both a mother and a professional in a STEM field?

The risk is, if you don't show parents also working on professions, that they'LL pick up the message, "you can have children or you can work in a STEM profession - but don't expect to be able to do both! You will have to decide!"

For kids' books (also films, TV shows, etc.) at least one of the characters should be a kid in the target age group. Depicting children makes the stories interesting to children.

How else would you include a child in the story, given that no under-8s work as engineers?

a pp compares fathers
I don't think men have the problem of "man= sperm" the way women have "woman = womb"

in terms of finding ways to include kids, what about just making the character? Eg Bob the builder - that could translate to any number of women having whatever career, some might have kids, some might not.

I am not claiming to be an expert in childrens' books, just making an observation. It probably has annoyed on me on the woman = womb level.

But it's one of those "women are damned either way" situations (cf Daily Mail sidebar of shame, visible thigh gap=OMG, anorexia, no visible thigh gap = OMG she's let herself go...) Your issue, as a woman without children, is that you seem to interpret the book title as, presumably, making out that one can only be a rounded human being as a female scientist if one has a child - and therefore tacitly suggesting that no matter what a woman achieves in the rest of her life, it counts for nothing unless she's used her womb. I, on the other hand, as a woman with a child, encounter far too many situations in which it is assumed that my having used my womb means that I've lost all claim to intellectual acumen. It's the old patriarchal switch-and-bait - no matter what our personal circumstances, the issue is brought back to our reproductive capacity.

But, having said this, I honestly don't think this is what the book (which looks rather nice) is intended to do - it's just a way of engaging children in the world around them - look what mummy/daddy does. Sometimes a book title saying "mummy is..." isn't some sort of critique of every individual woman in the world's personal choice whether or not to have children, sometimes it's just a book with the title "mummy is..." (Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...)

Considering it is not that long ago that women had to leave professions when they had children, I think a book showing a mummy being an engineer is a very good thing.

itaktha - we have different definitions of "not that long ago"

fair enough, interesting to see these views. I do read a lot of my friends' kids' books* but haven't actually encountered any mummy/daddy ones.

(I read them with them, not just to myself for entertainment!!)

I think the main problem is that there are so few depictions of women engineers and women working in STEM in general. One book, or series of books, can't possibly depict every experience.

Well, the marriage bar was only abolished in1973 for the Foreign Service part of the Civil Service. Shockingly recent to me, but I may well be older than you

And Bob the Builder does include kids. The construction vehicles are the child characters.

My guess is if you're reading kids books for your own entertainment, they'll be the ones aimed at older kids (Philip Pullman, etc) - surely no-one reads "Mummy is an engineer" type books for fun, because they'll be aimed at pre-schoolers/reception age, and with the best will in the world, no book aimed at this age group is one which would be voluntarily read by an adult for their own entertainment. (There's a reason my DS had The Hobbit read to him at far too young an age... in fairness, I did read all of Enid Blyton's Blah of Sodding Adventure series too.)

Mostly "My guess is if you're reading kids books for your own entertainment"?

I'm not....I'm reading little kids books to my friends' little kids - I think you misunderstood a joke I made at the end of my post...?

I see your point, lorelei , but given where we're at, books like this are imo a good thing.

Actually, it occurs to me that there aren't enough kids books featuring engineers in general.