Does having sex with a prostitute constitute rape?

[quencher]

A thread triggered this for me so I have decided to ask the question. If you consent to be paid for sex but don't feel like sleeping with the customer, are you being raped?

Even that's an interesting case.

So what the judge has been saying is that you cant let someone hurt you even if you agree to it?
So that would mean that prostitution should be illegal on the same grounds, or porn.
What about people selling cigarettes or alcohol? Should they be charged too?
Tbh, I suspect not. Because what the judge is in effect saying is that society condemns BDSM as being an 'abnormal' act (and that's what the people have been condemned for, even though they all being both victims and perpetrators) whereas prostitution is seen as OK (and alcohol etc...)

I think Maggie is making a good point re choice.
I would hate to take free will and choice from prostitutes. Or to treat them as children by saying they cant help doing xx because they have no choice and therefore they need to be protected.

I personally have much much more issue abut the way the punters look at women (some links before tell you A LOT about that) and about the fact they all KNOW that the women aren't keen or that the fact they KNOW they can force a woman to do xx when she doesn't want to (Have you ever heard of a case of the rape of a prostitute whilst she was working??).
In which case, the answer is to work on the men, the way they look at women etc (ie education, changing the culture that sees prostitution as OK and having sex as a need or even a human right rather than a want. And ne that sees women as objects of convenience rather than as human beings).
And offer whatever support is needed to women, ie access to support for childhood abuse, MH in teenagers, support for drug users etc etc.

None of which any government will be happy to do unfortunately.

littleprincesssara

fwiw I think underage prostitution is a different matter altogether. No way that in that case, consent can be given and yes t is ALWAYS rape.
And yes these are women/ men (children!!) who should be protected. The discussion on choice doesn't apply there.

They were prosecuted for ABH not BDSM. It wasn't a light spanking, all better the next day.

Doinit don't be ridiculous.
I'm not talking about literally saying no and the man ignoring you. What a ridiculous interpretation!

I'm talking about having the choice to say you don't want to do something - and then consequentially not doing it

Just like the coke addict in the book I referred to.

Therefore drug addict does not necessarily = forced into selling your body.

But twist away if it makes you feel better

Why is it that underage people don't have any power of consent, while overage ones do Marie? Do we become magically invested with the power of choice aged 16?

Sorry - but why is OK for anyone to be able to be put into the position of having to do this for cash?

I think very few people defending the "right" of a woman to be a prostitute would choose to be one themselves. Otherwise we'd all be making a bit of cash on the side.

(Of course, they're different - they just don't care, or they love sex, somehow it doesn't do them harm even though it's not something we'd do, or they're already damaged anyway, why not? Let's not treat them as children.)

Meanwhile we know that people's "choices" are actually the result of their situation from birth to adulthood and beyond - there are a million factors which shape us and the way we "choose" things. Personally I don't believe we have that much free will at all, a lot is determined or caused by our circumstances. Person A raised in an abusive household will have less "choice" than Person B in a loving one because their entire mindset and life are skewed from day one.

I also agree that if there are no checks on behalf of the punters, they can they never be sure the woman has consented in any way, which makes them implicit in the whole culture.

even of course they haven't.
But as I said above, there are plenty of situations where there is some serious bodily harm happening and no prosecution (such as prostitution or cigarettes).

BDSM can be very harsh and leaving scars. It's still BDSM.

Which is why I suspect thei ssue has more to do with the fact that the judge saw that sort of activity as 'unacceptable' because it was BDSM rather than because it caused some harm.

Adala I think it's an insult to humanity to say humans don't have free will. How else could anyone change/better themselves/grow as a person?

of course some people have a rougher start than others but to say they don't really have free will to make better choices in life is doing the many people who do improve their lives despite a rough start a grave disservice in my view.

It is all down to the individual.

Adala why is it different re choice with underage people?
Because they are children.

Whether they are 6yo. Or 15yo, they are considered as children and are seen as having restricted choices (and responsibilities!) because they don't have the maturity/the power/the strength to say no to some practices that are harmful to them.
I thought that was quite obvious otherwise we would not have any special rules for children re having sex, crime etc...

I agree that the cutting point is arbitrary. There is little difference between a 15 years and 6 months old and a 16 years and 2 months old. And not all mature at the same time bla-bla-bla.
But there is no denying that we don't treat and can NOT treat children the same way than adults and expect them to be able to make the same throughout reasoning (along with taking the responsibility for it).

It doesn't mean that women in prostitution shouldn't be protected or that prostitution is ok.
It means that taking of free will and freedom and the ability to make a decision for themselves from prostitutes is taking away from them a fundamental human right. And that it's is deamining to treat them as children (which is what we would do if we say they can't decide, they are forced into it therefore it is rape)

But we DON'T have free will the way you're suggesting. We are all products of our circumstances. It's not insulting at all to say people are different.

Why do adult women automatically have the maturity/power/strength that children don't have?

A 12 year old from situation A might be a hundred times more confident, intelligent, and resourceful than a 30 year old from situation B.

(I say this as someone who was abused as a child by the way. I'm not defending child abuse at all!)

It's a good job Alan Sugar doesn't think like you Adala

He had a very rough start in life, and look how well he's done!

Of course it's not!!! A prostitute is consenting, as is the person paying for it. Obviously it's discuss able how much the prostitute wants it, but she is doing it for whatever reason, and the man is not necessarily doing anything wrong. Imo it's wrong to go to a hooker on the corner of a street, to fund a drug habit. That's horrible. However if you want to pay £250 for a high end escort, who is doing it because she wants the money to fund her lifestyle, then that is a completely different scenario. Fwiw I know a high end escort/callgirl, and she loves what she's doing. She does it for easy money, and enjoys it too. I do not know anyone who stands on the corner of the street offering blowjobs for money for drugs though...

I am talking about adults there btw, not children/young teens, which would be very wrong indeed.

People legally consent to jobs that hurt or could injure or kill them all the time, and for the most part no one cares.

But when sex is involved, it's considered too damaging (more damaging than going down a mine?). That does indicate worrying attitudes towards sex and female sexuality.

Yawn... High end "happy hooker" vs Streetworker.
So men who have more money to pay £1K are totes different in mentality to the ones who can only afford a £fiver for a BJ behind the Bingo.

little It's more that sex work disproportionately harms women... And what with this being a feminist boards and all....
Of course it's terrible that men choose themselves down the mine and into war etc, but harm to women is something feminists like to discuss.

Mining is obviously dangerous but different to prostitution in that miners are unlikely to be raped or murdered while they're working, there is no shame attached to being a miner, which there obviously is to being a prostitute, so it's not really comparable.

Sorry just to be clear I don't think prostituted women have anything to be ashamed of (punters do though)
I just meant that society in general regards the women as being shameful

Ophelia in case you hadn't noticed, this is not the feminism board. This is Chat.

I stay out of the feminism board as much as I can, unless I'm in the mood for a good giggle.

Anyway the coke addict who refused to get into prostitution despite having dealers knocking on her door and about to be thrown out of her dingy basement flat kind of proves my point that people do have free will! Even when heavily addicted to class A drugs.

"It's a good job Alan Sugar doesn't think like you Adala

He had a very rough start in life, and look how well he's done!"

Yep. But look how many people from his sort of background haven't done well. And look how very many more from privileged backgrounds are millionaires, or however you measure success.

That's not the point. The point is people claim that you can't consent to do something damaging. Clearly you can. There are dangerous jobs that are done primarily by women but no one cares.

Why is sex consider so much more damaging (to the point we restrict women's right to choose to do it) but not jobs that are physically dangerous?

I care a lot about women-and men- who dangerous jobs.

I don't see why that's relevant.

maggiethemagpie
Adala I think it's an insult to humanity to say humans don't have free will. How else could anyone change/better themselves/grow as a person?

of course some people have a rougher start than others but to say they don't really have free will to make better choices in life is doing the many people who do improve their lives despite a rough start a grave disservice in my view.

You've spectacularly missed the point.
There is a very real difference between going to evening classes for 2 years to improve your chances of finding a better job.
and being faced with an electricity bill you cant pay today, needing to find the money now, and not having any other choice but to prostitute yourself.

The first 'choice' is only possible if you have the resources to carry it through. When society values individual people, and education, things will change.

But it doesn't always start off as "I need drugs, I'd best go on the game and get some money for it". It quite often starts off with the 'friend' or 'boyfriend' who buys the fixes as a favour so she becomes reliant on him to provide what she needs. Then he can't afford them anymore but his mate Dave (or whatever his mate is called) "Dave has always fancied you and he's a good bloke, he says if you're nice to him, he'll buy you some" or he'll help with the rent or the gas bill or whatever all else it is they need the money for. So she's nice to Dave in return for drugs and quickly realises that 'nice' means letting him have a quickie three times a week but it's okay, he's a good bless and she's doing it for the benefit of her and her boyfriend. But then it's not enough money because the price of the drugs has gone up so Dave suggests his mate Trevor as an extra source of income so now she sees to Dave and Trevor. Then Mick. Then John. Then she starts to think, maybe this is too much and it's wrong and I don't want to sleep with all these men so she says no, I'm not going around to John's house tonight and her 'boyfriend' (who is actually her pimp) threatens to throw her out on her ear with nothing, cut her off from her drug supply, call social services and get her kids taken away, or whatever. Or maybe he jumps straight to the direct approach if giving her a good kicking. Either way, she ends up going to John's house. Then it's Pete. And it keeps snowballing and escalating until it's any man with the inclination and £30 in his back pocket. She's wondering where the fuck her life went so wrong and can't see anyway to fix it.

That's not choice, consent or free will and while some prostitutes will have found their way into the trade via other routes, for many their route into it will be some variation on the above.

Maggie that person described does not sound that poor. They managed to get a bank to actually lend them money. They didn't have to sleep rough because they had that dingy basement to go back too. Am assuming it's dingy because they could not put the heating one. Her free will was assisted by what circumstances surrounded her. Most likely her back ground and helping her to get help. People probably trusted her to lend her money. People also trusted her enough to publish her book.

*Why do adult women automatically have the maturity/power/strength that children don't have?

A 12 year old from situation A might be a hundred times more confident, intelligent, and resourceful than a 30 year old from situation B.* Come on. Children mentally grow into adults. Those who can't are protected by the state. The state decides on when this cut of pint is for the majority. Different countries have different cut off points for when this age is and when they are not just mentally but not physically mature too.
Being educated, well traveled does not make more a mature person. Being really intelligent does not mean good social skills and understanding of the world socially. life experience or adult understanding of the world comes from growing and learning. A child's body is not mature enough to handle sex and damages are unrepairable and can lead to life long struggle.