Has the definition of phobia changed?

[ImpYCelyn]

Okay, I'm being a little sarcastic, but I cannot believe how easily people throw around the term phobia at the moment.

On FB I'm part of a cloth sanitary pad chat group (I realise how weird that sounds). Someone posted a link to 15 cartoons about periods "that only women will understand". The first comment is "this is transphobic". There is then a back and forth with one person accusing everyone else of transphobia. Someone has attempted to point out that it's not transphobic, however it could be argued that it has failed to take into account trans people, so admitting there's an issue, and has been told "you don't get to decide what's phobic, you're not part of the oppressed minority".

I'm pretty certain phobia has a specific meaning. And not including trans people isn't automatically transphobic. "15 things only straight women will understand" wouldn't be homophobic. It's just about straight women. It might display a lack of knowledge, but that's not the same as homophobia.

I have friends who won't identify as bisexual anymore (specifically, on the kink scene), because apparently the word bisexual is transphobic as it excludes trans people. Pansexual is what you have to be. Again, just because the word bisexual doesn't explicitly say "I'll sleep with trans people" that surely doesn't make it phobic? And since when is having sexual preference indicative of a phobia? Straight people are not homophobic because they don't want to have sex with people of the same sex. That's just their sexual preference.

I've put this in feminism chat because although asking about the meaning of a word isn't directly feminist, I am really annoyed that this has now reached the point where a support group for women asking all kinds of questions about periods, incontinence (often post childbirth) and advice for helping their teenage daughters, has suddenly become somewhere where you can be transphobic for saying that women have periods. although when I read the post I just laughed. Because, of course.

Can someone clarify in relation to the period discussion, Is it transphobic to say "biologically a woman" on the basis that only biological women (and presumably that would include trans men) have periods. You might identify as a woman but that does not create a biological ability to menstruate. Or do I not understand?

I've been told just saying "biological women" is transphobic in itself because it is "othering".

I think the issue comes up on both grounds, that it is othering and exclusionary to transwomen and misgenders or erases transmen.

Sorry Venus I misunderstood! I thought you meant challenge the transgender talk directly, rather than just turning it towards a different issue. Yes, that I could do. I think there's a lot of reluctance, not just from me, to engage with transactivists as it can get nasty quickly. But I think probably I need to suck it up that I might get ripped to shreds by a few people, whilst making a bigger issue the point.

Amalfi that's really interesting! I'm glad to hear people are changing their minds. As someone who had a lot of trouble as a teen with my parents over my girlfriends, I found it really really difficult to be cast as anti trans (although at that point, not transphobic). And I am not anti transsexuals. Initially I was also pro trans. But I think that changed quickly for me as I had a fairly large amount of contact with transgender/gender queer/gender fluid people at the time, and they drove me bloody mental. They actively looked down on non-trans people, or gender conforming. But their definition of that was bloody narrow. I was gender conforming because I normally wear skirts or dresses and have long hair, that's about the only gender conforming thing I do. But it's a very looks-based assessment of sex/gender. Most of them are bi/pansexual, kinky, polyamorous, pagan (all at once). Now I also know people who are all those things without being trans, who manage not to be special snowflakes, but IME there's a big difference between the ones over about 30/35 and the ones in their early 20s, who often seem to be accruing as many non-conforming descriptors as they can . But it's been my experience.

That friend identifies as trans (for about the past 2.5 years), and having been fully onboard for longer than that is thoroughly entrenched with the ideology. We're not in contact anymore. Not because of that row, but because it became the only thing she ever talked about, ever posted about, and became very very aggressive about. It became frankly boring, and very difficult to interact with her. There was no room for anything else in her life. The tiniest hint of an alternative perspective, not even disagreeing, became a personal attack against her. Most of her one time friends have now been re-categorised as bigots. So, so hard to deal with. I don't actually know what her pronoun is now, it's changed several times. I'm not deliberately misgendering, I just don't know. It used to depend on her daily gender. She has a new, gender neutral name, as she is neither male nor female. She actually just looks like a punk when you see her. A female body, with partially shaved, partially spiky green hair, dungarees and baggy tee. In another generation she would just have been a punk.

sohackedoff someone suggested that and got shot down. As Venus says, it was also considered transphobic. Because there are "non-women" (for want of a better word) who do not menstruate and do not want to be identified as biologically female. And because transwomen do want to be identified as biologically female

And apparently "a large number" of not trans, but not women do menstruate. A tiny number

agree with PP who said getting all this out into the open more will bring everyone to peak trans, which can only be a good thing- also that this really is massively a '1st world' problem and that OPs group, in looking at the issues faced by menstruating women and girls in the majority world, will see that we as a sex class are oppressed because of our sex not because of our 'gender'. Gender is just a tool for that oppression.
Years ago I read a feminist speculative fiction about a matriarchy where women were dominant, and men subordinate (because obviously anyone with vulnerable weak genitals hanging OUTSIDE their body would be subordinate) and menstruation was cause for great bragging and proof of superiority. And of course, only women bleed.

Sorry, "non-women" who do menstruate but don't want to be identified as biologically female.

I actually half found out what all the fuss is about a week or so ago. Apparently its the word 'woman' that is the problem...

www.reddit.com/r/GCdebatesQT/comments/57qdrb/radfems_vs_trans/d94d3nt/?context=3

But that explanation makes no sense while people are kicking off about biological functions and such.

That's interesting WankingMonkey. But why isn't the word 'man' the problem? Why can't they just be feminine men? Oh wait, that would be logical and gender critical. Why the hell do they get to even try to redefine a word that has a solid meaning to however many hundreds of millions of English language speakers? Yes, meanings change over time, but men/women? And as you pointed out FtM/MtF already uses male and female inappropriately.

I suspect though, that if they were allowed to take the word, they would want something else. As evidenced by discussion of periods/prostate cancer being transphobic. So what isn't?

Sorry, that was pretty incoherent.

Phobic means irrational fear or strong dislike doesn't so no i dont think that example is phobic as only biological women have periods how can a sanitary wear joke or meme be transphobic in a group for sanitary pad users .

This whole thing is ridiculous. You might as well say you can't have FB groups about kids because not everyone has them, or shoes because not everyone has feet.

Besides which, by no means all women menstruate. Postmenopausal women don't, for one. Does this FB idiot claim to speak for all of them too?

Oh menopause phobic that could be a real thing

this person identifies as gender queer (not even a transman), has periods, but is not a woman. And so is offended that "only women have periods" as they are not a woman. They do not identify as a man, male or a transman though
It's all self indulgent crap and we are 'transphobic' to call bullshit on piles of steaming narcissistic horseshit.

And, the term transphobic in most contexts is inaccurate, even by the trans descriptions because the so called 'TERFs' don't seek to exclude Transmen i.e. females from female only biology/spaces etc. Just Males. Men. Humans with Cocks. But Transmen don't count. Because they are women

And if the transman above does not identify as trans either then how the fuck can you be transphobic to her?

Biological women can identify as dragons for all i care doesnt mean if they have internal organs that function means they menstruate so then identifying as genderqueer wont take away their fallopian tubes if they are offended imo that is their issue not ours woman should not stop talking about periods in case they offend some dragon identifying random.

I completely agree about the appropriation of the word "phobia" - I have wondered about this a few times myself. I think it's an easy term to throw about to get liberal people to stop talking, given that the suffix "ist" doesn't really work with trans

As an aside, you say that you teach in a girls school with a number of trans students - are they MTT or FTT?

I read that as prawn versus wanking

I thought there was going to be a battle royale

I am a bit disappointed now

Are some fuckwits seriously saying that bisexual is now transphobic

Olennas they are FTT.

We have boys in the sixth form, but none are FTT.

MTT, sorry. Mistyped there. We have a lot of FTT throughout the school, but no MTT in the sixth form where we do have boys.

Thus far we also haven't had an application in the lower school from someone who identifies as female.

Rufus in some circles bisexual has been trans-exclusionary (might be phobic by now) for at least the last two years. There was some guy on YouTube trying to earnestly explain why it wasn't. But friends who are on the kink scene had a real time of it. Apparently the very "bi-" prefix highlights the inherent binary attitude of those who choose to identify as bisexual, and by choosing to identify in that way you are marking yourself as anti-trans, when you could just identify as pansexual instead. I refuse to be pansexual, it makes you sound like a teenager

Here he is. This was back in 2012. People have been drinking the Kool-Aid for a long time, it just was confined to certain spheres for a while. But I can remember being attacked online for being bi at least two years ago, maybe nearer three. It was definitely one of the things I argued about with my friend. Because based on my sexuality I was automatically classed as anti-trans by some people. I assume they've moved away from bisexuals as so many of the more recent, more vocal activists are late MTT and define as bisexual themselves, so lesbians now make the better target.

Hi Imp, this is DS of Rufus here, how do people think bisexuality is transphobic?

In the first place there is much debate within bisexual groups as to if bisexuals like men and women, or if they/we are attracted to multiple genders/sexes, and i do not really think that its up to anyone to tell people how to identify.

Its all very confusing

Cross post i think there imp

Rufus' DS I agree with you. No one has the right to tell someone how to identify. Bisexual is as much "trans-exclusionary" as homosexual or heterosexual. Everyone has sexual preferences within broader categories anyway, and for some people that includes trans/gender fluid/transsexuals/etc and for others it might not. There are so many different ways peoples' sexuality can't just be neatly put in a box.

I would agree that if anything the word bisexual has suggested more openness towards a wide range of people, certainly that it doesn't limit it (there used to be an American bisexual magazine called "Anything that moves" playing with this very idea). But unfortunately the word binary became a dirty word, and I think bisexual just got caught up in that.

'Tis nonsense, but a real kick in the teeth when bi-erasure / invisibility remains a huge problem even within the LGBTQ+ community.

And as Rufus pointed out - they're fuckwits.