The root of female oppression?

[femfortheday]

Hi. I've always been of the general belief that the root cause of women's oppression was our female bodies - that we are on average smaller, slower and weaker, our reproductive capacity or our perceived reproductive capacity, that we are uniquely vulnerable because of sex, pregnancy and breastfeeding.
But I've seen this mentioned as being false. I don't want to derail into more trans stuff, as I just don't have the energy for it St the minute if I'm honest. But is there something else? Something that makes men hate us, either consciously or subconsciously? Another reason we end up where we do? Any links or book titles even would be appreciated too, for further reading.

the drive to have children is culturally mediated

Do you think so Shining?
Would you mind expanding on that...I'm interested, as it's not my view. Not trying to attack you but genuinely interested in something very different what I think.

Not convinced that gay mean are more misogynistic than straight men. Straight men, if they want to pursue relationships with women, have to keep their misogyny under wraps in female company. Hence why so many women get involved with a seemingly nice guy who turns out to be a misogynistic bastard somewhere down the line. Gay men are much freer to show women who they really are from the get go.

We don't have true instincts, humans are embedded in culture, the things we long for are related to the roles that we identify with, the concepts we form about ourselves, about what is desirable

The needs that Can be satisfied by having a child can be satisfied in other ways

Gay men are much freer to show women who they really are from the get go yes I have always thought this
But isn't there also a 'thing' where gay men sort of idolise some iconic women, Madonna has a big gay following?

Having children (and wanting children) make us vulnerable

See, Dame I think for decent men, that is also true. It's just that I don't think most of them have considered the full impact on women, of bearing children.

My (STBXH) constantly referred to my pregnancy as"not ill- get over yourself". In fact, it had a significant impact on my health while I was pregnant.
The physical event of giving birth is highly dangerous to both woman and child...we are somewhat inured to this in the West, thanks to peri-natal care.
But I don't know if that vulnerability is enough to explain the entire system of patriarchy.

I'll go back to my earlier point, that it is the man who perceives himself as inadequate or in some way deficient, who is the biggest problem for women.
Ultimately, every one of us, men and women, is deficient in some way. Becoming an adult is learning that and dealing with it.
So, most adult men are somewhere on the curve of learning how to deal with their own inadequacies (as are women, but that's not what we're talking about).

Somewhere, along the way, men who were coming to terms with their own deficiencies, decided that their physical superiority is enough to project their personal inadequacies on to women.

Oh God! notDavidTennant, that's very bleak

^It interesting to see that the idea of women choosing not to have children is unthinkable to some
As with all our behaviour the drive to have children is culturally mediated, it feels instinctive becuase it is strongly internalized and culturally reinforced in multiple ways^

I don't know if that was aimed at me. But I never said that all women want to have kids. I just said that women on mass will not choose to stop having kids.
I think the same applies to men, as a group they won't decide on mass not to have kids either.

I certainly never implied it was "unnatural" for a women to want to be child free. Of course it's not.

"We don't have true instincts, humans are embedded in culture, the things we long for are related to the roles that we identify with, the concepts we form about ourselves, about what is desirable"

I'll have to think about that. It's a very interesting, and challenging point of view for me.

I refer you to my earlier point whenshewasbad:

''OK, hyperbole from me, but it doesn't even have to happen 'en masse' for a population to shrink alarmingly in a couple of generations

As populations grow exponentially so they also shrink exponentially''

"gay men sort of idolise some iconic women, Madonna has a big gay following?"

Isn't that often a power thing again though?
A woman who can overcome hardship to achieve a kind of "fuck-em-all" mentality; the person who can achieve the "least interest" stage is very attractive if you feel powerless and marginalised.

Which I also think is why "nice" women go for the horrible guys...

As populations grow exponentially so they also shrink exponentially

Could you give me an example of a human population that has exponentially shrunk - due to low birth rates not starvation or war?

Look at Italy
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/13/italy-is-a-dying-country-says-minister-as-birth-rate-plummets
Ageing population, reduced birth rate = dying country

It seems to be another unthinkable thing, we are so used to being alarmed about rising population that we can't imagine the process in reverse

I found this book quite interesting on the subject

www.dannydorling.org/books/10billion/
Pretty sure it's widely reviewed if anyone wants to search for a synopsis

First, apologies are due to MSHaveNaiceHam for calling her 'Mrs'. Clearly, I need to go to Specsavers.

"Not convinced that gay mean are more misogynistic than straight men. Straight men, if they want to pursue relationships with women, have to keep their misogyny under wraps in female company".

Remember though that we don't always just meet in sexual circumstances. The gay men I am referring to I meet in a public / professional context.

The book The New North, the world in 2050 also looks at population. Some countries - Sweden and others already have policies and benefits set up to encourage women to have more children.
Also pre the recent mass migration from Syria it was also why some countries encouraged immigration and took in refugees, to keep the population growing or at least stable.
Not really related to the OP mind you .

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll check out the new north...

That's really interesting shining and Italy's birth rate has definitely declined (I'm not sure the word exponential can but applied but it has dropped).
But the population of Italy hasn't actually shrunk.

The ministers quote in the guardian article is We are very close to the threshold of non-renewal where the people dying are not replaced by new-borns. That means we are a dying country,” Health Minister Beatrice Lorenzin said

Close to the threshold for non renewal doesn't mean the population numbers are falling off a cliff. Italy's population has grown over the past 100+ years. It hasn't been in decline.

Exponential changes start slowly and then accelerate at an ever increasing rate

Japan's population has fallen by nearly 1million in 5 years they have a very very low birth rate a survey found that 61% of single men and 49% of single women between 18-34 have no interest in being in a relationship.

Exponential changes start slowly and then accelerate at an ever increasing rate

That's a very good point but saying it could happen is not the same as showing a population decrease (exponential or not).

Although the more I think about it the more I think you have a point. I was thinking of China with the enforced one child rule. Couples can now have two children but it is though many won't as they are too worried about their jobs and child care.

I think you are right and maybe people don't want kids as much as I was thinking. In the past it didn't matter as there was no birth control so most women got pregnant a few times in their lives (if they survived the birth).

I'll admit I very much struggle to imagine a world where hardly anyone wants to have children but maybe it will happen.

Is though = is thought

Many European countries have tackled a low birth rate with raising immigration to maintain population levels. Will be interesting to see what happens now there is a growing backlash against immigration

Been looking at Japan. Really interesting, population is decreasing (again would use the word exponential).
But it does look like the total fertility rate has started to increase again in Japan.

These drop in populations are more of a socio economic issue. It does f look like societies are going to disappear because they simply stop having children in mass.

there is also the growing trend to have children later in life which reduces the birth rate.
If women start demanding that men step up to the plate when it comes to sharing the burden some men will decide that they dont want children if they have to take on an equal share of the downsides=more people who dont pair up and have children

part of the societal pressure to have children comes from the fact that all your peers are doing it, if all your peers are doing something else the push towards parenthood drops off

behaviour is catching, we are influenced by the choices taken by others that we identify with