Worrying about how your feminism looks to others

[FreshwaterSelkie]

Do you?

I was thinking about this today, and I don't know if its a factor of being in my forties and generally giving less of a toss what people think of me, or if after twenty five years of feminism, I just feel like I'm on top of it, and I don't much care if people disagree. I don't mean that I have nothing left to learn, as long as there is breath in my body, I'm learning, but more that I'm much more selective about where I take my feedback from about whether I'm getting it right or not (this is a lifelong pursuit for me, thanks to quite an invalidating upbringing).

Part of me thinks that this is really quite a breakthrough for me in my feminism - I have wasted years and breath and words on people who never took me seriously, falling back, softening my words and trying not to offend. These days I am much more happy just to assert my position, chuck it on the table and say "There. it is what it is. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative, but unless you give me some compelling new evidence, it won't change (no, your hurt feelings are not compelling evidence)". I spend more of my mental energy on the issue, and less on worrying about what people with think of it, or of me for saying it.

I'm feeling this way particularly in relation to men, and whether they find my brand of feminism threatening, or a turn-off, or "problematic" or whatever. I used to feel quite compassionate, thinking "Oh, this is probably quite hard to hear, and difficult to process, but the onus is on me to explain it nicely". Now, I think, "If this is hard to hear, then it's very likely you need to hear it, and here it comes. You can take it on board or not as you please".

What do others think?

That's an interesting explanation almond, thanks.

That is really interesting almond, thank you.

That is horrible, lifelong - sorry that happened. Do you feel like this would stop you speaking out in future?

morepanda, I agree about needing to conserve the mental and emotional energy. There's a whole world of sexist shit out there, and sometimes it feels too overwhelming.

Good luck with your unit, terrified! Let us know how it went.

It's an interesting question about to what extent you live your feminist values. At the moment, I'm really struggling with this in my personal life. I have some work to do there, but circumstances are quite constraining. It gets me down a bit.

I pull no punches whatsoever. Of course I'm polite, but I'm polite to the standards of a) men (so different to the standards of politeness to which women are held, IMO) and b) the other person in the conversation (anyone who tries patronising me learns very quickly that I do not consider that polite).

But I think in some ways I have it easier because I present in a really feminine way (you'll take the heels off my cold dead body) which I think makes some misogynists people listen to me in a way which they wouldn't if I presented e.g. in a butch way. So I do think there's an element of privilege in the way I approach things.

On a personal level I care more about what I think of others than what they think about me.

I think it can be very hard to live your feminist values, but that's kind of the point, if it was easy we probably wouldn't need feminism

You see I don't find it hard to "live my feminist values". Because I grew up knowing that I was equal to any man it was how I expected to be treated. Anything else was fuckwittery, and just like all fuckwittery was to be called out and shown to be ridiculous. And over the years I have done just that.

I have of course encountered men who have tried to dismiss me. Because I am working class, because of my religious underclass background, because of my single parent status and of course, because I am a woman. They have been my easiest, and dare I say they are my favourite, opponents. I love it when stupid entitled men underestimate me.

I'm not sure whether I am a feminist or not.

I believe in equality, particularly economic equality. Equality in the workplace/economically is probably what most defines me as a feminist.

I have a SAHD husband who looks after the kids whilst I work, so I feel like I've acheived that in my own family. I've seen through his eyes how hard it can be for men to take on the domestic role.

However a lot of time on these boards I see a lot of man bashing that puts me off. I don't see how we can have equality by putting men down.

I also think things like pink, frilly clothes for girls and lipstick and heels for women are ok and not anti-feminist.

So, not sure if I'm a feminist or not.

Interestingly whilst Margaret Thatcher was most decidedly not a feminist, having grown up with her as PM was probably the best thing for my feminist journey in that I grew up knowing there was nothing a man could do that a woman because the person with most power politically in the country was a woman.

I used to.
I don't now.
I stopped apologising for my views. I've decided that if someone doesn't hold feminist values to at least some degree than there's a good chance I don't want to spend time with them anyway.

I think (whether you are conscious of it or not) it is hard to live your feminist values when you live in a patriarchal society. However well you bat back misogynistic nonsense you still live a society where the deck is stacked against you. Sometimes it is not possible to even see the discrimination that is occurring.

Scallops, what's FWR?

This board, Alias. It used to be called Feminism and Women's Rights, back in my day...

What parts do you find difficult Contentedcat?

Peace & love. When women shout about their passions... They are classed "painted & dented women". So where are the laws to protect women? "Sexual harassment at work place" is the only one I found. There is not a law as simple as stopping men from menacing behavior like obstructing your way out on purpose to cower u.

Please name me a modern charismatic leader who passed laws in favour of women. Not even Maggie the Murderous man obsessor. There was no gender quotos. No woman was allowed in her cabinet in the entire 11 yrs Yet most hold her 2 be a feminist icon.

Why is a credible feminist not allowed in parliament to challenge men. Feminism has become a kind of Gorilla brand. Pushed underground. & Now the male agent provocateurs have a problem with the gender quota in every field every industry. Ridiculous charges against women... That they take off 10 yrs out of their career to raise children. Do they tie their expenses on a leash for a decade?

I'm not sure most do hold Margaret thatcher as a,feminist icon

^ Understatement alert

I was in a rush!

However, I think it's important that a flawed woman be just as likely to be PM as a flawed men. I can be pleased that Britain had a female prime minister decades ago whilst not being pleased about some of the actions of her and her government.

My old boss explained to me one day how he had promoted a lesbian over her straight female colleague as she "wouldn't be having kids". I explained to him in an eloquent fashion how wrong he was. I was made "redundant" a week later.

Perhaps it would have been nicer to let the lesbian have this little advantage.

Because I am pretty sure that next time, he will not promote the straight woman, he will promote the man.

He should have been grateful for your honesty. But of course he wasn't. He was not your friend.

And that's why I don't worry how my feminism looks to others. I am way past seeing this as some tiny misunderstanding that can be cleared up by talking about it.

There is a war on women, and we are in enemy territory most of the time.

Men who are sexist assholes are put on a list, and avoided in the future. I do not explain to them why they are wrong, except perhaps in very specific circumstances where they attack another woman.

Mostly, I just do not engage with them.

My feminist activism mostly consists of talking to feminists to let them know they are not alone, telling women that there is feminism if they need help, and signing petitions. The last thing is the only one that could look bad to others, if they actually make the effort to read all the signatures.

Sexist men might notice that I do not want anything to do with them, but most probably do not realize why. That's okay. Perhaps, when they notice that many, many women do not want anything to do with them, they will figure out on their own.

I like Mikas post. Ime a lot of women in traditionally male positions are almost anti feminist. Men have a vested interest in letting some women in ("See? We aren't sexism, oh no") but it's easier all around if those women don't then rock the boat too much.
Similarly I think senior women have a lot to lose if they are perceived as too feminist. Look at the US elections and the accusations people are "voting with their vagina" (ha!)

vestal I'm going to be a bit fangirl and say I am in awe of your uncompromising feminism. I wish I could be more like you!

voting with their vagina" (ha!)

I'm gonna need a bigger pen....

I went to school/college in a very backwards rural area which is still of the "man goes to work, woman stays at home with the kids" attitude (also rampant homophobia, racism etc, the whole shebang), so I wasn't very open about my feminism at all.

Went to uni at 18, met other feminists and it was like an awakening. I love having friends who I can discuss issues with. We can have proper debates with people who see things in a different light, rather than "You're wrong because God says so" or "you're wrong because that's the way things have always been around here" and refusal to engage.

Four years later I'm very loud and proud with my feminism and probably known amongst my friends as the most likely to share feminist content on Facebook etc, but I'm proud of it, and gradually as we get further into our 20s I'm noticing more and more friends becoming increasingly feminist in their views, and increasingly open about it :)

vestal I'm going to be a bit fangirl and say I am in awe of your uncompromising feminism. I wish I could be more like you!

To be honest, I probably selectively misremember a lot of things, and I do have hobbies where I have to interact with sexist men, though they are not actually part of a group I am a member of.

I am also a misanthropic loner who has only a handful of friends.

I remember just now that I actually explained rather recently to a sexist man that I would not do X hobby with him because he was a sexist, but he had actually said something along the lines of "You aren't a feminist, are you?", and, well. "Yes I am. Bye."

Hmmm....... I have been a part of a radical feminist group which I thought I would enjoy because on the surface we share similar values and an ideological outlook.

However I have since left because it became apparent that I couldn't share my perspectives without being shouted down and patronised.

I felt worried about sharing my feminist perspective because I was accused of derailing the conversation. My input wasnt welcomed and other members felt I was derailing the conversation because I would bring up and explain how white women not only benefit from white supremacy but also participate.

In a conversation about Hillary Clinton I spoke about how Hillary Clinton used racist tropes about black children 'super predators' in 1996 to justify criminalising children and creating the schools to prison pipe line and ensuring slave prison labour and devastating black families. I said I couldn't vote for her as I thought she was a morally bankrupt white supremacist who uses black women as props in her campaign.

I evidenced my claims and spent a lot of time crafting my posts. I was accused my wanting Trump to win and trying to cause divisions between women.

It was at this point that I realised that I couldn't organise with this group of people, me bringing up Hillary's record was seen being more divisive than Hillarys imprisoning of black children.

This isn't anything new, Martin Luther King spoke about the futility of being able to organise with white liberals this was just the first time I had experienced it myself.

^I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.^