Is SJW bullying good for the progression of feminism?

[1DAD2KIDS]

The following video I think is very valid and makes some very good points. I think it identifies problems with some of the loudest and IMO most toxic elements who go under flag of feminism.

It's 14 mins long. Please watch if you have the time. It would be nice to know the loudest most hostile voices are not representactive of the movement.

Why don't you go away and read the three posts I suggested? They extensively cover the issues you are interested in.

I asked if you were aware that there were several men on the thread, because, as Dervel mentions in his post, men can often find themselves more receptive to feedback and challenge from other men that they don't care to receive from women.

For all you say you may have been a bit sensitive, you still can't seem to put up a post without a sneaky little jab about closed shops and shoutiness, so I'm out. Good luck with...whatever it is you are looking for here.

George Lawlor had his voice. He got heard. The voices of white, middle-class, heterosexual men are invariably heard. Just because some didn't agree with him and told him to shut the fuck up (because what he was saying was in fact dangerous and incorrect) doesn't mean to say he didn't get heard. As Marbleheadjohnson says he didn't enter into a debate. He provided us with a lecture.

If you are going to argue that less privileged voices aren't being heard and are being shut down in favour of yet more privileged voices then I'm with you 100%. But I don't think that is what you are saying given the example you chose. You could have chosen plenty of examples where black feminists; working class feminists; radical feminists; lesbians got shouted down. But no, you chose an example of a man who spouted anti-feminist, anti-women shit and got shouted down by feminists. Why is that I wonder?

You've come on here and your 2nd, yes 2nd sentence contained the phrase "...toxic elements who go under flag of feminism." And we are expected to take you on good faith?

I also don't think it is particularly unusual for anyone, even those shouty voices you keep on about (but not actually defining) to be fearful of expressing an opinion that goes against the norm of any environment. I don't to tell my colleagues at work, for example, that I think male violence is the number one problem we have in the world (perhaps after climate change). especially if those opinions/arguments aren't well formed or new. It is nerve-racking sticking your head above the parapet.

It is especially daunting that was meant to say.

I agree Buffy.

There is a certain sense of entitlement to our time and energy to engage with you in a manner that you see fit.

There's also an element that we should have to take on board people's perspectives, even if they are the antithesis of ours. If we aren't then we are close-minded (despite them doing exactly the same whilst showing complete disregard for our feelings or experiences). I'm thinking of the recent trolls especially. But evidently they deserve a voice too .

To be fair for me it's a difficult one. Especially not knowing what course entails. I suppose it's definitely systematic of world that is not equal for men and women. Especially when we are targeting men because there is a problem on view about consent. That is the sad state of the world. As someone like most men (I hope although my circle of friends may not be representative) I am happy that I would never do anything without heart felt concent. The thought of not having concent sickens me. So I get how he could resent the idea. Personally I think the suggestion that I should go to such class would hurt me Personally. But looking at the bigger picture I think he is missing a trick. Missing the oppertunities to see the problems that are face and how because they way people our socialised how other people do not understand consent. This could help him to identify when his other situations around him that are not right and make campus a safer place. Also I think classes send a message to hopefully my people feel a bit safer.

But I totally support his right to oppose it and the right for others to critique within a safe space of asking questions and challenging things. That for me is part of university. It totally saddens me this freedom is attacked and people are bullied into submission. Oppression is oppression.

As to the photo WTF. It's daft in my opinion. To try and put a face on something that is totally internal.

The George Lawlor this is an example of the consequences dished out by a toxic element.

Do you have any examples of who it was that bullied him? Because the only example above was from blokes, not feminists, and certainly not the people here

And come on it was more than a bit of anger. They made his life hell, possibly affecting his grades, future career and mental health. I would call that bulling and toxic.

Again, do you have any evidence of this?

But do we accept these angry elements are there? Are they justified in any way? What affect do they have on the perception of feminism and how do they affect its advancement?

What do you think? Do you feel that there are angry elements? Do you think they are justified? How do they make you feel about feminism?

You seem to be asking us for our opinions, but seem unable to offer your own - your last post started out with a whole paragraph about what you weren't saying, and finished with one asking us what we were saying, yet at no point have you told us what you do think

My point is not about if he made a stupid point or not or weight of his point. How jolly convenient. Because he is a nasty, privileged little shit who thought that he shouldn't be told not to rape people. Because people like him don't.

People just like him do. And 1 in 5 women leave college in the US having been raped. Exactly how angry would you like women to get about that? Because it makes me livid.

And there seems to be a rash of male posters at the moment (blah blah NAMALT) who want the feminists to explain themselves/women/society with a hectoring, critical tone.

Personally I think the suggestion that I should go to such class would hurt me Personally

Ah, finally an opinion.

See, now, I don't feel that way. I think I have a fairly firm grip on study skills, but went to the compulsory courses, I would go to a consent course if it was required in freshers week no problems, I've done plenty of things that I didn't really need to do because they were required in order to get some piece of paper or other. I don't feel that going to a compulsory course is a judgement on me, and I don't feel that I'm so perfect that I mightn't learn something by going to one. That's what was upsetting about George, that he was so arrogant that he felt that he already knew it all.

1dad2kids What you are identifying is broadly speaking a general problem in the tone of public discourse. You don't want to zero in and discuss the particulars of a specific feminist issue, yet you want to paint it as primarily feminist problem.

I'll agree women tend towards being at the butt of this more often than men. More female MP's suffer abuse, harrasment and stalking than their male peers. In addition whenever a woman who is politically conservative voices an opinion gets a horrendous public bashing, that male conservatives don't face to anything like the same degree.

Yes people who identify with feminism harass and bully other people, but those are hardly the only wasps at the picnic. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Of course, there is bullying and anger from all groups. I don't believe the majority of feminism would support this or encourage it.
I personally would attend a consent course (I'd prefer them to be held for maybe 12 year olds). I think a clear understanding of female and male consent would be good.

I'd support women getting angry, sorry. I think it is needed.

Like Buffy said, bullying is in the eye of the beholder. So George received an overwhelming backlash to his video and statements. But are all those women and men bullying him? Or were the vast vast majority just saying no you are wrong. That isn't bullying someone. But combined with thousands of other voices it will certainly look like it to the other person.

Consent lectures don't focus on men for a start, both male and female students are expected to go. They don't concentrate on saying yes or no, they talk about communication where they focus mostly on sex being mutually enjoyable.

I have no idea where George got his info from, but I suspect he was mostly after his 15 minutes. Shame he got them by making himself look like a fuckwit who has no concept of consent.

Consent lectures should focus eighty per cent on men

And yet, they don't.

So many 'decent' men don't understand the basics on this. It is not confined to grunts

(back in, can't help it)

When it comes to online abuse, the people who get the most of it are women.

"Although the majority of our regular opinion writers are white men, we found that those who experienced the highest levels of abuse and dismissive trolling were not. The 10 regular writers who got the most abuse were eight women (four white and four non-white) and two black men. Two of the women and one of the men were gay. And of the eight women in the “top 10”, one was Muslim and one Jewish.

And the 10 regular writers who got the least abuse? All men".

And the articles that attracted the highest proportion of abuse? Articles about feminism and rape.

However, it's also important to tell young women and girls that they don't need to be screaming no for it to be rape, that sex where it's fucking obvious that they aren't enjoying, but for reasons of lack of confidence, fear or whatever can't articulate that, can also be described as rape, because men know, or at least bloody well should know what consent looks like.

Some of the things young women often say is something along the lines of "I didn't know I could say no, I invited him in" or "I'd consented to this sex act, but not that one, but that's not rape, is it?", so it's equally important to have them in the lectures so they can have their rape myths dispelled too.

Yy xenophile. And the "capacity to consent" point, many women on mn are unclear regarding sex whilst asleep, say. And conditional consent - if you stipulated a condom and he takes it off, that's rape too.

I dont get involved in hiring where I work but my grade means u

...i have to do the online module about not discriminating in writing a job spec. I dont get offended by it, I just do.it.

Selkie and Xenophile yes yes yes.

The two adult men in my immediate family 'just don't know' about the Ched Evans case. I had to have a conversation with them.

THEY DO NOW

I'm not sure its hostility per se, more an inability to suffer fools.