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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please can we talk about what "pro choice" means?

398 replies

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 08:18

Some threads on here, and coincidentally, a couple of real life conversations prompted by a recent television programme, have made me think that there is an attempt to erode the meaning of the term. For me, pro choice means that a woman should be able to have an abortion within the law because she wants to. Her reasons are immaterial.

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gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 19:05

It amazes me that there has been no engagement with the points raised regarding abortion on grounds of gender.

It has been pointed out that in places where this happens freely there are massive problems for society and the law is in fact allowing men to go through any number of pregnancies as they roll the dice for a boy.

You people really don't give a shit as long as it furthers your own agenda.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 19:05

men to put women through rather

Spookybitch · 12/10/2016 19:11

A "perfectly healthy" 24 weeker would be rare. Roughly 40% of foetuses born at that stage will die before they turn one, and then there are going to be those with a myriad of health difficulties. To me, it's absolutely not an argument for lowering limits.

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 19:19

"How does it sit with you that no ethics committee would approve what you are pushing for?"

Sorry? What am I pushing for? Hmm

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LineyReborn · 12/10/2016 19:20

You people really don't give a shit as long as it furthers your own agenda.

I've just read through and come onto this thread. gonetoseeamanaboutadog that's a quite awful thing to say to MN posters, many of whom including myself have experienced some extremely difficult things. Uncalled for.

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 19:23

"It amazes me that there has been no engagement with the points raised regarding abortion on grounds of gender."

I did talk about this on one of the threads.

If you accept that women have the absolute right to an abortion up to 24 weeks, then you have to accept that women will have abortions for reasons that you personally don't approve of. And some women will choose to abort a girl because giving birth to a girl would make their life within their culture intolerable.

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niminypiminy · 12/10/2016 19:35

Gone, in my view that case it's someone else decided what happens within the woman's body. It wasn't the attacker's place to decide what happens to the woman's foetus so it should be a separate crime, in my view. I'd still think it should be a separate crime if someone attacked a pregnant woman who was on the way to abort the foetus and the baby subsequently died. The decision to terminate the pregnancy or not should be in the pregnant woman's hands.

This case raises questions important questions, because the man was found guilty not of destroying a foetus but of destroying a child - and his crime was against the child not simply against the woman. So in law the unborn baby was regarded as a child rather than as a foetus.

And, of course, although in arguments s about abortion one commonly refers to a foetus - even when it gets to the point where it might sustain independent life - in order to emphasise that it is simply a piece of the woman's body, in common n parlance women rarely refer to foetuses.

I have yet to hear of a woman who has suffered a stillbirth or miscarriage refer to the loss of a foetus. On the contrary, women who have miscarriages, even quite early ones, clearly think of it as their child, giving it a name and often having a funeral service.

You could say 'these are only words, not principles', and that is true. But words are how we express our principles, and the language we use shows how we think.

I suspect that women are more likely to refer to an unwanted foetus and a wanted baby. And why not? Except that the baby who is named and mourned is thereby accorded the stays of 'child' with its own independent existence.

Let me be clear. I am not arguing that abortion is wrong in principle or practice (within current limits). I just think our attitudes are a long way from the extreme pro-choice purity of some on this thread. And the fuzziness of the law about when a foetus is a child probably very accurately reflects people's views.

MorrisZapp · 12/10/2016 19:35

I give a huge shit about societies in which the population is suffering imbalance because of sex selective abortion. One of the girls in DS class was found as a near newborn by the road in Ethiopia. Nobody knows her date of birth.

Aborting or abandoning girls has massive long term repercussions for society. But it absolutely cannot be solved by removing or restricting abortion rights. Societies need to change so that girls are viewed as equal.

Until massive progress has been made to that end, if individual women feel that their own lives would be shit if they had a girl baby, I have to hold my nose and accept their absolute right to terminate.

What's the alternative? More girl babies abandoned in the road to die?

Rockpebblestone · 12/10/2016 19:44

I think addressing the injustice in society which cause women to feel like abortion is the only course of action they can cope with is of vital importance.

Abortion is no sticking plaster to heal the pressure to have a 'perfect' baby, a boy, being raped, not having enough money, being too young to cope with a pregnancy. These problems are continuing to exist and the psychological consequences remain whether a woman can have an abortion or not. Not that she should be refused an abortion but I think there would be less need for abortion in an altogether fairer society. Abortion shouldn't be used to brush these injustices under the carpet.

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 19:45

"I have yet to hear of a woman who has suffered a stillbirth or miscarriage refer to the loss of a foetus. On the contrary, women who have miscarriages, even quite early ones, clearly think of it as their child, giving it a name and often having a funeral service."

Of course you haven't. Because they are wanted babies that the woman chose to have. I had a miscarriage at 6 weeks and grieved. Because I wanted that foetus- well embryo really- to become a baby and join our family Because I had chosen.

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BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 19:48

"Abortion shouldn't be used to brush these injustices under the carpet"

No of course not. But while you're creating a perfect society.......

And even in a perfect society, I would imagine that a lot of women would still not want to carry and give birth to their rapist's baby. And I would still not want my 14 year old daughter to continue a pregnancy she did not want to continue for the sake of the community..........

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LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 12/10/2016 19:50

We need a feminist version of 'think globally, act locally' for this.

I see no contradiction in being entirely pro-choice AND working for a global society that values disabled people and girls more. Because a different society is what will reduce terminations of girls and disabled people, not taking away a woman's right to choose.

niminypiminy · 12/10/2016 19:55

f you accept that women have the absolute right to an abortion up to 24 weeks, then you have to accept that women will have abortions for reasons that you personally don't approve of. And some women will choose to abort a girl because giving birth to a girl would make their life within their culture intolerable.

That's quite an extreme libertarian position which holds that there are no moral considerations which should limit free ohoice.

It's not about what people approve of or don't approve of. It's about whether it is wrong to abort a female foetus simply because she is female.

Rockpebblestone · 12/10/2016 19:55

Bertrand well in my kind of 'perfect society' rape and child pregnancies would not exist...

But I agree with you in the meantime.

However, equally, whilst there is still a need for abortion, tackling the injustice in society should not take a back seat. That is why I felt I kept repeating myself over and over, in the other thread, that it was not good enough, that there were any reports of women feeling pressurised, by HCPs, to abort upon a feotal diagnosis of Down's. And there ensued much discussion concerning those experiences not being conclusively representative enough...

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 19:57

"It's not about what people approve of or don't approve of. It's about whether it is wrong to abort a female foetus simply because she is female"

No. It's about what the woman feels will make her life tolerable.

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BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 19:59

So, if you believe a woman should be able to have an abortion up to 24 weeks with restrictions- what restrictions would you impose?

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Ausernotanumber · 12/10/2016 20:00

Bertrand. Are you going to acknowledged the current legal position in England Wales and Scotland, i.e. That abortion is illegal?

niminypiminy · 12/10/2016 20:01

Of course you haven't. Because they are wanted babies that the woman chose to have. I had a miscarriage at 6 weeks and grieved. Because I wanted that foetus- well embryo really- to become a baby and join our family Because I had chosen.

But there is a real issue here , which is that when you have a miscarriage or a stillbirth you are not simply grieving a dream - most women in that situation regard it as a baby with its own unique being, who has died. And it doesn't stand up to say that they're babies when they're wanted but foetuses when they're not. And I think it would be more honest to own up to that instead of pretending that abortion is a morally neutral act. And I say that as someone who strongly supports the law as it stands and who has had an abortion.

Eevee77 · 12/10/2016 20:06

I am pro choice. I don't tend to make it my business, to have an opposing view to woman making the choice to terminate say 24 weeks +. Woman who choose to terminate at this stage are few and far between and whatever it is that is pushing them to their limits and causing them to feel this is the only option they have, I cannot argue.

We don't need a law outlining a cut off point. Why anyone, any woman, would want to willing handover their rights to their own anatomy because of what, really? Look at the statistics. Last year for example , 185,000 abortions were carried out. 92% of abortions were carried out at 13 weeks or under. 0.1% of those were carried out at 24+ weeks gestation. That is 230/185,000. I'm unsure statically about the nature of those abortions but I imagine a high about of those 230 were due to medical reasons.

Going down the path of handing over the rights to your own body, even if only for a short period of time, is madness.

So yes, I am pro choice. For any reason, any gestation, and believe in tackling the social problems motivating woman behind some of their decisions.

Rockpebblestone · 12/10/2016 20:13

Because if the injustices which lead women to abortion, are not tackled, and instead the law (or delivery of it ) is changed instead, you just end up with huge numbers of unwanted babies together with back street abortions and all the horrors that ensues with that.

Rockpebblestone · 12/10/2016 20:19

But equally the law does act a signpost to what is acceptable...

Penfold007 · 12/10/2016 20:25

I'm pro-choice, for me that means giving women autonomy of their own body. If they no longer wish to be pregnant so be it.

NerrSnerr · 12/10/2016 20:25

I completely agree with Eevee. I couldn't explain it better so I won't try but I am completely pro choice.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 12/10/2016 20:28

But rock there aren't huge numbers of women having back street abortions post 24 weeks. Hmm

BertrandRussell · 12/10/2016 20:29

I completely disagree with you, niminy. An embryo or a foetus is not a baby- it is a potential baby. Depending on what happens to it, it either becomes a baby or it doesn't.

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