Julie Bindel article on children in public spaces

[CallaLilli]

I've long had regard for Julie Bindel for the work she's done in combating VAWG and for standing up to trans activists, but I'm utterly disappointed in this article of hers that appeared in the Guardian yesterday. Because by not wanting children in public spaces, she's basically saying she doesn't want mothers in public spaces. Why are mothers of young children so looked down upon? On the other hand the article could just be clickbait or a parody as the Guardian seems to be heading that way lately!

"There are no lesbophobic comments."
She was described as a lesbian separatist (and hence?) not a feminist, and also desperately plain looking childless lesbian. Why was her sexuality or indeed her appearance relevant? unless you're being lesbophobic that is........

Bindel's USP is she is a lesbian. She refers to it in almost every articke, including this one. She frequently makes disparaging comments about heterosexual women

You ask Why was her sexuality relevant?

Why don't you ask Bindel - she brought it up?

I wondered which carriage was designated for bad-tempered middle-aged lesbians

Do lesbians require different travel arrangements from other bad tempered , middle aged people?

I enjoyed her article but I'm not part of the feminist cool crowd. I enjoyed it because it was so full of ridiculous cliches and scenarios which didn't happen. I enjoyed it because I'm old and irritable and can't tune out annoying people on trains, planes and restaurants. Some of these are children whose parents don't care about how they behave. Let's face it they exist.

Lass, you're ignoring the lesbophobia in others describing her incorrectly as a lesbian separatist. We all know she's a lesbian, but its the way it was included in peoples 'arguments' as to why they didn't like the article.

Ditto the desperately plain looking childless lesbian line.

We all know the old trick of mentioning supposedly irrelevant detail because you know that even though irrelevant, some people won't read it that way. Adding the words separatist, and plain, childless as above just make it even more obvious. People who can't be bothered actually arguing based on what she said, so take the lazy way out.

Back to trains.................I'll try to ignore the persistent lesbophobia on here.

Actually, you could argue that current trains are more friendly towards dogs, than kids. Dogs, after all, can go into the main carriage area, and underneath seats etc. Whereas I've seen all too many mothers with prams etc banished to the smelly carriage end near the loo because (unless they trek to the luggage area on Coach D in CrossCountry, west coast line anyway) there is nowhere to put a folded buggy, and certainly nowhere for an unfolded one.

If we were designing the trains, what would we want? I suggest a child-friendly coach/area, with room for buggies, then also a child-free bit as well for us grumpy ole lesbians! Somewhere mothers on long journeys could comfortably breastfeed without sitting in the loo? What do mums do at the moment, just go for it despite whoever is in the seat next to them? Even mums who used to book a seat at a table so they could place a carry-cot on the table have an issue now that in a bid to 'increase' seats, CrossCountry took out almost all the tables compared to what Virgin had when they used to run the lines.

Like the loos in workplaces issue, we know what the real issue is, it is public spaces designed by men for men, and even a few grumpy lesbians who don't like kids shouldn't be used to disguise that fact!

People who can't be bothered actually arguing based on what she said, so take the lazy way out.

People did argue with it- despite the fact it was a lazy, hackneyed rehash of an early, lazy , spiteful article. Several people, including me, pointed out the lazy stereotyping and frankly made up scenarios.

If it had not been Bindel who wrote it but any of the female hacks on The Daily Mail would you demand such intellectual rigour be applied?

Great. Now you've turned it into a pushchair on public transport thread.

Like there aren't hundreds of those.

"Like there aren't hundreds of those........."

I'll just shut up then and keep mumbling 'lesbophobia' when anyone prods me................................

I dunno, I usually only read 'Feminism Chat'. And I thought the 'dogs better treated than kids' line was quite good.

"would you demand such intellectual rigour be applied?"
Look Lass it's quite simple, I thought Julie wasn't being treated fairly because she was a lesbian (or the irrelevant fact she was a lesbian was being used instead of argument).

I always demand intellectual rigour, comes of being an academic (except when I can't be arsed of course and I need a break from being rigorous ).

We all know she's a lesbian

She certainly tells us often enough -including this article- you really should raise the subject with her as to why it was necessary to shoe horn it into this article.

My point was that it was another example of her antipathy towards women , indeed people, who are not like Julie Bindel.

"She certainly tells us often enough -including this article....."

Except why do you feel the need to object in this way to that? Okay, straight women don't tell you 'all the time' they are straight, buts that's because straight is the default assumption.

And also avoids the original point about lesbophobia on this thread. Although perhaps not avoiding it in that you are coming perilously close to providing more wonderful examples!

I'm surprised you haven't complained about my username, given that that 'tells you often enough' everytime you read any of my posts............

just go for it despite whoever is in the seat next to them?

Well yes of course. I certainly don't go to the loo!

Breastfeeding is more difficult in a small restricted seat of course, as is practically anything, including bottle feeding I should imagine. The solution to that is not to banish breastfeeding mothers to a designated breastfeeding area, nor to banish bottle feeders to their own area, or those with young toddlers to another area again, or....

The solution is for everyone to live and let live a little more and not be so vile to people just trying to live their lives and get their kids from A to B.

"The solution to that is not to banish breastfeeding mothers to a designated breastfeeding area, nor to banish bottle feeders to their own area..."
Well, I was more inclined to think that in a civilised society, breast or bottle -feeding mums (or dads) could have access to a nice area if they wanted, rather than trying to do it whilst pressed against the window by a random smelly stranger with a can of 4X...............Or that you could have a mass occupation of first class!

Surely we'd all travel by private train carriage if we could afford it. No I don't think the train tickets of the general public should subsidise a 'naice' parent and child area. I think people should just get over the fact that public transport is public. One person wants a comfy seat to feed a child, another wants a comfy seat because they have haemorrhoids. Some trains are crap. That's life.

Don't try and dress up being shitty about small children as oh but I thought it would be nicer for them to be away from me. If that's what you got from that article you are really tying yourself in knots defending JB.

Except why do you feel the need to object in this way to that? Okay, straight women don't tell you 'all the time' they are straight, buts that's because straight is the default assumption

Objecting ? No, but pray do tell in what way was it relevant for Bindel to bring her sexual orientation into this article? Do lesbians require their own special form of public transport? Away from those awful heterosexual breeders?

You are determined to see lesbophobia. I disagree there was lesbophobia on this thread. I will say for the umpteenth time I was making the point Bindel has little empathy or interest in women who aren't basically just like her.

I agree you are tying yourself up in knots trying to defend Bindel and seeing fault in every one else apart from her.

And SomeDyke no much as you would no doubt love me to complain about your username please don't change it; it's nice and easy to spot it on other threads and skip your posts.

Well yes, I have breastfed my DC on public transport - or Dbabies to be clearer. Otherwise, you are sat next to a screaming baby. And I have also been the parent texting because I need to get an email sent off because I have a job to do and ASD DC cannot settle long in childcare.

But be happy SomeDyke, with my ASD DC who is noise sensitive and is liable to meltdowns I don't use public transport any more. A child carriage would not help, it would give him sensory overload. Though he has noise-cancelling headphones. Maybe the people who don't like noisy children should try some. Or go to one of those cafes that don't let buggies in?

"Some trains are crap. That's life."
Well, seems that In sweden, they have an impressive range of family friendly coaches and couchettes.

www.snalltaget.se/upload/snalltaget/PDF-filer/Vagnskisser%20sep%202016%20engelska.pdf

And this page makes british trains look really shit:
www.seat61.com/Europe-train-travel-with-children.htm

If they can make family-friendly coaches, then why can't that go along with child-free and quiet coaches as well for us grumpy ole dykes? Nope, we're stuck with crosscountry hacked-about versions of the virgin cast-offs, and revamped bloody 125s (although at least these are considerably wider than the Crosscountry carriages which are considerably narrower due to the tilting -- and same width even if you're not on a tilting train!)

That article is horrible - just the sort of thing Katie Hopkins would come out with. Who the fuck has a problem with a mother explaining the difference between two menu items to a child? In various coffee shops I have helped out older people, people with physical and learning disabilities, people who are from a different country so aren't used to every obscure food term - should they have all stayed out as well so I wasn't delayed a few seconds?

Whenever I have heard the term 'breeder' it has always been used to make having children sound like something dirty - much like anything else women do with their bodies. Similar sentiment is often used against people in poverty and various racial groups. It's nasty, but I will add that I have only experienced this from heterosexual childless people so haven't heard it in the context Some mentions. It's always with a faux concern for the earth's resources ime.

"We all know the old trick of mentioning supposedly irrelevant detail because you know that even though irrelevant, some people won't read it that way."

Yes Sum, dog whistle tactics were used, it is so obvious. Unfortunately, it's not the first time i've seen this tactic employed, i've seen it used against almost all women in minority groups, even by those who call themselves feminists. Bindel's article was terrible and insulting to mothers, but that does not mean it is ok to attack people because they are a member of an oppressed group. It then becomes not about the person, and wrongs they may have committed, but instead about the groups they are a member of. It is simply dog whistling; those that are already prejudiced against the targeted group (in this case lesbians), use it as an opportunity to attack that group. Those that are not prejudiced against them, are often oblivious to what is going on, hence dog whistling. It is a common tactic used by the right wing, usually to stir up racism, in this case it was used to stir up hatred for lesbians. It is gaslighting to then claim that is not what was going on.

Gay men came up with the term "breeder". Just as gay men came up with a whole host of other negative slurs for women, especially for lesbian women. They did this because they can be just as misogynistic as any other men. I do not know any woman who uses the term, if any do i'd say they have spent too much time around gay men. Just because gay men have decided to call women names, does not negate the fact that lesbian women are lower down the social hierarchy than het women. The reason they are is because lesbian women are seen by men as not fulfilling their purpose, because they are rejecting men sexually and as partners.

"Cis" privilege was invented by men, so they could play the victim, and pretend they don't have male privilege, over women. It is a complete reversal where men can actually claim to be oppressed by women. They use this especially against lesbian women, and say lesbians are oppressing them if they do not want to sleep with them. The only way for lesbians to escape this is by "transing" and then they are suddenly supposed to have male privilege.

In light of this to deny that lesbians are oppressed at all, by saying het women are not privileged over lesbians, is a right kick in the teeth to lesbians. Considering it is lesbians who are first in the firing line in this backlash against feminism, which in itself shows who is at the bottom of the hierarchy. Of course het privilege, white privilege and economic privilege exists between women. There is no need for slurs to describe these privileges, but they do exist, it is disingenuous to deny this. And erases the real material oppression these women additionally face.

I personally can't stand the misanthropic posturing that goes on in the guardian. In a few weeks we will have another article about how awful Christmas adverts are as if it's the first time anyone's ever had that opinion. It's all a bit boring and Bindel's I hate kids having a milky drink in a shop that exists to sell milky drinks is no different. I personally don't like listening to other people's conversations or the noise of the train engine so before I had DD I just listened to my iPod. I'm pretty sure they're still available if Bindel needs to travel by train again.

Mums net often has subtle lesbophobic comments. And those saying them always deny that it was lesbophobic. So same old same.

6 pages on a bit of filler fluff that is so obviously tongue in cheek?

I don't make any distinction between trans activists and people who go on about the nonsense that is 'privilege' and then use it to minimise the problem of slurs.

If anything, cis is less offensive to me than Breeder.

It's all just social justice warrior nonsense.