The gift of fear - triggering

[Italiangreyhound]

Has anyone read 'The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence (Paperback – 3 Jul 2000) by Gavin de Becker.

I got it and have not read it yet but saw this chapter posted elsewhere on Mumsnet.

I know fear is sometimes used to keep women 'in their supposed placed' but I wonder if understanding fear can help to keep us safer.

This chapter deals with a rape and may be triggering for some.

I don't want to exchange scary stories or rape details but rather to understand if learning about how or why people act (including ourselves, especially when we go against our better judgment) can help to keep us safer.

www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/becker-fear.html

Thank you for reading and no worries if no one wants to reply.

Yes, sorry Felascloak my word random there meant 'just about anyone' (in my head) and could include boys's relatives, friends's relatives.

The man who tried to kiss me when I was about and was babysitting was the boss of the mum I was babysitting for. I opened the door and he wanted to come in. He had been drinking. an adult now, I hope I would have the sense to let him in. But back then I let him come in and offered him an alcoholic drink. He tried to kiss me and I managed to bundle him out. Letting him in and offering him a drink was what I thought I should do.

"...when I was about 16 and was babysitting."

Sorry keys keep sticking!

"... He had been drinking. As an adult now, I hope I would have the sense not to let him in."

No, I didn't make it sound as if women should be scared of each other at all fresh. You rudely suggest I've missed the point when I've grasped it and raised a knock -on point.

If we suggest women should listen to their fear, sooner or later a victim will state that it must then be their fault they were assaulted because they didn't listen to their instincts and act on their fears.

To avoid the idea that women sound modify their behaviour in any way on account of the baddies out there is a most unpopular view. I've been on threads where feminists have been adamant that acting 'prudently' (which is exactly how fear prompts women to act) is self -limiting and useless as a way to stay safe, unless you are also eschewing all men for life.

I've also been on threads where people have insisted a naked woman walking down the middle of the road in a bad area is as safe from rape as the women tucked up in bed at home. To suggest otherwise was seen as victim blaming. But it is our instincts that tell us we would not be very safe in that scenario and they do so for a reason.

So no, women aren't scared of women as such but there is a fatalistic subtext to what women hear from feminists that encourage them to view fear as a relic of oppression.

Gone I totally see where you are coming from.

I really do hope women, and men, will not be blamed if they are the victims of crime or violence because they could not hear (or did not act on) the voice of fear that was there.

Not all feminists would say that fear etc was self limiting.Well I am a feminist and certainly would not say that. Or rather that the limits are worth it. I mean, I can't fly, so I don't try and leap off tall buildings. I know walking the streets alone in the middle of the night could be dangerous, so I don't do it. The limit of not walking alone at night is less limiting than being beaten up or killed. And actually I wouldn't walk the streets alone late at night as a man either, so I don't think some of this is a feminist issue.

I think common sense is a great thing, and not so common.

Just as I do not listen to all men to shape how I behave I do not listen to all women to do so either. Just because I am a feminist I would not assume another feminist could be an authority in telling me about my own life and what my actions should be.

Plus, as one gets older - one gets more fearful naturally (my experience) and I think of the things I did in my 20s and shudder!

Re "I've also been on threads where people have insisted a naked woman walking down the middle of the road in a bad area is as safe from rape as the women tucked up in bed at home." Well I think she should be, but the reality of the situation is not that.

For me feminism is not about denying reality.

I do take your points.

i'm confused about where i've said that women should fear women- can you quote me back on that, gone, because i can't see it myself?

i don't think you make a knock on point at all, i think you've made a point that i seem to recall is a bit of a hobby horse of yours, which is that feminists want to give women advice that will get them raped. Which i don't think is true.

I struggle to see how we get from "listen to your instincts" to "listen to your instincts or it will be your own fault if anything bad happens" so directly. the point of the article and book is to encourage women to fight social conditioning that tells us not to be "rude" by having good boundaries. The only way a women is in danger of being raped is by being in the presence of a rapist, and the advice given in this book is about how to be more adept at identifying that possibility at an earlier stage, with more confidence and then to feel able to act on intuition. have you read it? because i think that might help clarify it for you.

I suggest you read Italian's post to understand the logic and relevance of my post fresh. She doesn't have your bias problems understanding the point. Which was a fair one whether you wish to see it or not.

I personally think it's a tangent which, with respect to Italian, I'm not particularly interested in going down, thanks all the same. I understood the point very well as you have elaborated at some length on it on threads past. I remain unconvinced

I'm not interested in discussing it further either fresh - was a relevant point made in passing. Good to know you read my posts though :)

I read them too, gone, and I struggle to see your point. Feminists don't blame women for listening to their instincts. It's convention that urges us to be polite while our instincts are warning us of danger. I wouldn't like to know how many women have been raped simply because they were trying to be polite.

I'm glad I read this book because it's given me more confidence to trust my instincts and override that need to be polite that I've been conditioned with. Its not made me any more scared than I used to be, just more aware of why a situation in the past might have made me frightened.

I can see when gone is coming from too. I've read on here and other sites many times how women should be safe walking alone in the dark therefore we shouldn't feel the need to not do that and then to say women shouldn't do that is victim blaming. I think that's a dangerous way of thinking, almost like we shouldn't take steps to try to keep safe in case it offends people, which comes right back round to putting yourself in danger to be polite.

And yet if women warn their daughters of the dangers of situations where they will (rightly) feel afraid some feminists would call this oppressive.

There are situations in which women sense danger. Women are right to behave prudently in those situations and take steps to minimise their vulnerability - that is what our instinct tells us to do.

This is at odds with what some feminists on previous threads have advocated. Could be paraphrased thus:

The only way you can avoid danger from sexual assault if to avoid all relationships with men (because most rapists are known to the victim). Since that is an unacceptably high cost, there is little point in modifying behaviour in any way to minimise any danger at all. To think you 'should' take certain steps to say safe is victim-blaming behaviour because it will lead to women feeling that there are things they 'should' have done to avoid assault. The idea that women will be safer if they take certain actions is not (some feminists on previous threads have indicated) instinctive women's wisdom, but internationalisation of patriarchal ideas designed to limit their behaviour through fear.

Now I'm sure there will be plenty of posters who 'don't understand' the relevance of that thinking to this thread (or who can't remember anyone such saying such things on previous threads) but I don't buy it. This is easy stuff.

I don't dislike feminism. I do dislike an unwillingness to scrutinise and own contradictions.

stay safe

internalisation sorry!

My greatest desire is to stay safe, not to give in to anyone else's political views, no apologies necessary for that view, IMHO.

But, let's not get side-tracked, please.

Anyone got any stories of trusting their gut and it working out for them?

Thanks

I'm lucky in that where I live it's safe walking home at night. Not a moment's anxiety.

I think it's massively important to encourage young women to listen to their instincts. We're more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger, so giving yourself permission to seem possibly rude when your hackles rise is an important life lesson. It's not victim blaming to point out that some behaviour should raise red flags and that girls can and should learn not to ignore or minimise such flags.

On the relationship board I often read threads and think that if the woman concerned had listened to what the man in question was telling her with his behaviour early on she could have saved herself a lot of anguish. I know I've had relationships that taught me loads, mainly to never end up in that position again. That's what life does.

I do wonder when girls and women meet a new boy/man who shows his true colours why they often feel they can change him and see it as a challenge. I wonder if this is culture too, in a way we are conditioned to want 'a bad boy' and then to 'tame' them. All very damaging!

It's the dichotomy between "doing sensible things to be safe" and saying "if she had done x/ hadn't done y z wouldn't have happened. There has to be a recognition that a failure to do the first does not justify the second.

This is from a recent YouGov poll. I find it depressing that over 50% thought Kim Kardashian bears some responsibility for being robbed.

When I was heavily pregnant my workplace recruited a temp who was about 40, good looking, smooth talking and just a tiny bit too interested in my pregnancy. My alarm bells sounded but I didn't have to act, other than to not get drawn into conversation which was overfamiliar. Turned out he was on bail for sex with underage girls, he was convicted. So the instincts were right that time.

However they utterly failed me when a lifelong friend of DH was charged and convicted of possessing and creating images of child sexual abuse. Never saw that coming.

How fucking depressing Lass.

I am no fan of Ms Kardashian but she does not deserve to be robber. Largerfeld is a tosser.

robbed!

I'm a bit puzzled. Does the book basically give stories where people turn out to have dodged a terrible fate because of instinct? How can would you know that unless the attacker/source of danger is then found out? How many people on here are in those sort of dramatic situations. In real life people acting on instinct could in fact be acting in fear a great deal of the time, avoiding potential danger but also dodging lots of safe situations. Fine if better safe than sorry, but what can we learn about it?

Genuinely interested. I have absolutely been too worried to cause offended but the flip side is probably I am also overly nervous so can't trust my instincts.

Feel I am completely missing the point of the boom. Don't worry about explaining if I'm too far off to get it.

Would be interested to read but it looked like it was a bit too scary for me!

Cross posted WhoKnows

I read it and found it very useful and interesting. It made me be able to face and sit with uncomfortable feelings and act on them.

I come from a very male family - I only have brothers and male cousins, I work in a rugby club, I'm very comfortable around men. A tradesman came to our house to check something out and as soon as he was in my bedroom his tone changed very subtly. He stood closer, he became just a bit more personal, just a bit boundary pushing. I walked downstairs straightaway, then called him outside and told him I'd had a call from school and had to go out and id call later. It was hard to describe what he did but I think he was testing the water, in a v predatory way. That book helped me follow my instincts.