Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

I'd be pretty arrogant to think I could marginalise 80% of the people on this thread - 'fog on the channel, the continent is isolated' arrogant.

"In reality in any business meeting I've ever attended it gets assigned to the most junior person there."
Well, bully for you. But the evidence (and the gender pay gap) say that workplace sexism isn't dead. So, what is it best to do? Tell girls everything will be fine, so that when they come across it, they'll assume it's just them (and they some just aren't assertive enough, and that their general air just gives the impression they are the most junior person in the room, that's why they always get asked, it's just them and their problem, not ingrained sexism?).

Let's face it, most girls find out quite young (given the figures for sexual harassment and street harassment) that it isn't all rosy. Not telling them this won't magically make it all go away, but it will mean not giving them the information they need which is that it isn't just them, but that things can improve (because it used to be much worse!).

"It did come across a bit mansplainy, didn't it? I'm not angry with you lot just disappointed."

That wasn't patronizing at all

Cote d'Azur - I was trying to make a joke about sounding patronising. It didn't work - mea culpa.

I'm not negative about being a woman, and my DD isn't either. But I can see the problems faced by girls and women as a class - and 'I'm all right, Jill' just doesn't cut it.

But I can see the problems faced by girls and women as a class - and 'I'm all right, Jill' just doesn't cut it.

It's not a question of I'm all right- it's the setting out the expectation that as a woman life is going to be awful as on the Leo's mother thread where a poster has suggested girls see their futures as soon awful it makes sense to be boys.

'Lass' are you being deliberately obtuse or are you a bloke ?

I'm so glad you personally havent noticed any sexism or misogyny on your way through the world, but as we keep saying, feminism isnt about you, it's about all women and girls.

I was trying to make a joke about sounding patronising. It didn't work - mea culpa

Literally only a man could feel happy typing this out. The smugness is suffocating.

mea culpa

Seriously who says this without cringing inside out?

Why would you tell her it's fine? My point is telling her it's inevitable, that's what your destined for is so negative. Setting her up to assume life will be crap.

No, not telling her her life will be crap, or destined - but preparing her to be able to deal with it when it happens.

Lucky you for being in a mature trade I guess - in mine, I've often been one of the most senior in a meeting, brought a pad (for my own notes) and had someone expect me therefore to take them for everyone. I've been training a subordinate on how to interview, and had an interviewee address all his answers to him rather than me, I was groped and grabbed when younger more often than I can count, and no amount of preparation really did prepare me for my treatment when in labour - BUT I don't consider myself to have a shit life, I, personally consider preparation for these things, understanding that they are likely to happen, and thinking of strategies to deal with them to be a positive thing, not some depressing, doom-ridden prediction of my future.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, but interesting to find out I'm male. Lawksamercy but you live and learn.

I can't think of any women of my acquaintance who has the sort of negativity and low expectations of what being a woman is as is taken as the norm on here.

I think you misunderstand us Lass.

I think girls and women are amazing. I have high expectations of my girl children and myself. I think we are fabulous

I tell my girls they are brilliant every day and I am bringing them up as feminists, with well developed sexist bullshit detectors, who know that they deserve for the world to be their oyster as much as any other young person.

Meanwhile I try to shield them from sexism and misogyny as much as I can. I know it's there though because I have experienced it time and time again as have my female friends. My aim is for my kids to be as old and self-assured as possible before they have to deal with misogyny on them or own their own.

Feminists are not at all negative about women - quite the contrary. I love being around other feminists for this reason

'Lass' are you being deliberately obtuse or are you a bloke ?

Of course- either stupid or a man.

Really Beachcomber mostly what I see on here is a litany of how awful it is to be a woman.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, but interesting to find out I'm male. Lawksamercy but you live and learn

Oh don't worry albertcampionscat as you can see Sonia thinks I'm either thick or a man.

I was told on here once that "I've a lot to learn about being a woman". I suppose actually having xx chromosomes, uterus, vagina, breasts etc don't count or perhaps I imagined things like periods, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause.

Lass, so are you part of the Great Trans Plot What Will Enslave Women too? Exciting.

CAn i just go back to something Lass said earlier this evening.

I can't think of any women of my acquaintance who has the sort of negativity and low expectations of what being a woman is as is taken as the norm on here

I would have thought like this until quite recently. But it's subconscious.

I am a married mother with a decent job, earning roughly the same as my husband. He's a great guy, a really terrific, honest upright man of integrity. We have a pretty equal relationship. I work with a lot of men. They're pretty solid too.

But I've realised that my socialisation affects every contact with them. I've got my own way by planting my ideas in their heads and letting them think they are their ideas. I thought it was a pretty clever thing to do. But what man would do that? I've let them mansplain me and rolled my eyes but just let it roll over me to keep the peace. I listen to them talk and don't expect them to ask the same questions of me. I get patted and told things that I already know. I automatically assumed responsibility for the house and the 'wife work', the cards, the presents, all that. This is just ordinary, unnoticed, life stuff that goes on. Now (after FWR - honestly) I see it all very differently. I see it for what it is. It's just caving, just about every hour of the day.

So, Lass, I very much doubt that none of your friends are like this. I very much doubt it at all.

But I don't matter much.

True.

Really Beachcomber mostly what I see on here is a litany of how awful it is to be a woman.

Well we all have our own way of seeing things.

I see women being clever, canny and incisive. I see women engaging in critical thinking and consciousness raising. I see women taking on patriarchy and calling out its women hating bullshit. I see women being funny and political and feminist.

Well said, WW. That is the bargain most women have to make in order to negotiate the world, in a nutshell.

Well said, WW. That is the bargain most women have to make in order to negotiate the world, in a nutshell

Absolutely. And made harder to speak out against it by other women who collude with the misogyny.

I hope it's all right to say this here, I do feel like it's about the self ID problem and the rampant stereotyping

plus y'all probably know this already but I've only just seen what a transgender toilet sign looks like - a figure in a wonky skirt. (google it and there's many images)

I don't know about anyone else, but often when I look for a bathroom I find myself thinking how odd it is to see those signs of a figure in a skirt. I'd just put ladies and gents but I realise there's probably an issue of making it clear in other ways.

and guess what I found when I looked this up - someone calling the current set of signs discrimination! But no one cares that I never wear skirts or dresses...sniffle...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-36376857

Oh, FFS.

'Ms Bisson has since approved changes to the Condor toilets which now have symbols representing men and women, and not words. Male and female toilets are still separate.
"Gender is down to identity, symbols is one way of dealing with this", she said.'

No, condor ferries now do not have separate male and female toilets. They have 'masculine stereotype' and 'feminine stereotype' toilets.

Would a more appropriate pair of symbols be the standard 'mars and venus' used by scientists? Rather than something which based on outdated stereotypical clothing styles.

sorry I phrased that badly - the signs that I prefer are considered discrimination.

I imagine the trans loo won't get very far anyway because people won't want anyone to know they are trans.

I get that there is a fear of attack but i still don't get why one group's fear of attack trumps that of another.

That Condor trans woman - he must hate us so much.

I get that there is a fear of attack but i still don't get why one group's fear of attack trumps that of another

Because the people whose fear matters were born male and they are used to getting their own way.