Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

For example, I have discovered that using todays terms I am actually 'non-binary'

I have said this before but I do not 'feel' like a woman. I feel like me. I don't know anyone that feels like their sex. Can you answer me, what does being a woman mean to you? Haven't yet seen this answered without 'its just a feeling' and such..or stereotypes being brought into play.

I understand sex-dysphoria is indeed a real thing. I disagree that 'transgender' even exists..because gender is social and non-binary whilst sex is binary.

I think sillyolme concurs with Blanchards typology robe and that's what they mean about etiologies.
sillyolme I've read your stuff before, it's good to see someone trans trying to objectively research this stuff and make sense of it. I'm glad you are posting here, welcome.

WankingMonkey,

Interesting questions and it is a complex issue.

First, I don't like being "lumped in" with cross-dresser OR autogynephilic post-op transgender (note the term...) in one sense, but work closely with them as allies for certain legal rights that of necessity, affect us all.

No, I would NOT be OK with occasional cross-dressers or "feel like a woman today" types using the women's room with me.

And yes, I use the women's exclusively... as I have, without issue, since the mid'70s... and BTW, I also avoided the men's when I was a child... often leading to "accidents" before I could get home. (This is actually a very common problem for pre-transition transkids.)

It is not reasonable to ask post-transition transfolk to use a restroom based on "sex" (surgical status)... for MTF transkids, the average time spent "pre-op" (post-social transtion & HRT but not yet SRS) is five years, mostly because of lack of funds... and some because of age requirements. IT is very dangerous to go into the "wrong" facility... and its not just being in the bathroom that's dangerous... but being seen going into that "wrong" one "outs" us to any who saw... and if at school or work that soon gets around. The whole point of transition is to actually "LIVE" as that sex... not constantly have to fend of questions, snickers, and violence from those that are offended by our existence.

The idea that transfolk should use specifically designated facilities has exactly that same problem. If I were a student at a school with such... I would avoid that restroom at all cost to maintain my privacy. Further, we are only 0.03% of the population... who is going to build such facilities in sufficient number?

As to offending SomeDyke with my using the women's... well I've seen some straight women getting offended when masculine lesbians use them as well... and I frankly don't give a hoot as to someone who has a theoretical issue with me (or "early onset" folk like me)... it is the practical matter that I use the facilities that causes the least social anxiety for all participants... and trust me, if I went into the men's... there were be lots of issues...

We do what we must to be safe... and to live a full life.

Well I sometimes use disabled cubicle if I'm on a heavy period because they have sinks in the cubicle and it's the only way to clean up effectively. If I saw a woman using a disabled look I'd assume she was doing the same or had some other reason to use it, I wouldn't automatically jump to "oh they must be trans".

But anyhow I don't think the vast majority of women care about sharing with "genuine" trans women. I feel like the current political agenda (self identification) forces people to take a polarised position and is also making a situation that currently works much worse (ie trans women living as women using facilities no questions asked).

WankingMonkey,

You may wish to read this essay I wrote:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/the-origins-of-cross-gender-identity-in-transsexuals/

And this essay written by another transkid (she was a teenager when she wrote it, amazingly...)

www.transkids.us/gid.html

Sillyolme you still haven't answered the question 'what is a woman' though.

And if you are drawing a distinction between 'early onset folk' and others, how do you think we should deal with that difference? At the moment it's a free for all and women are being erased.

but work closely with them as allies for certain legal rights that of necessity, affect us all.

I really believe this is where it is all going wrong though. A few people, but not nearly as many would have no issue sharing spaces with fully transitioned people. Some may still. Speaking personally I wouldn't, but on an entirely personal level I wouldn't mind sharing with men either as I (luckily) have had no reason to fear anyone.

If this had all been about, transitioned people, or transkids..I honestly cannot see it being met with so much resistance. Its the expectation that anyone can be whatever they feel like that day, and everyone else must play along...that is the issue.

In a sense, I feel genuine transsexuals such as yourself are being used by those with a darker agenda. And thats whats being picked up on. The way certain loud people in the media are shouting...self identity trumps all else. So thoughts above everything. Which is a bit ridiculous to me.

I agree with you that it would be very wrong to expect fully transitioned people to use the bathroom of their native sex as it does put them at unnecessary risk of violence, or even just embarrassment.

A few people, but not nearly as many would have no issue sharing spaces with fully transitioned people.

meant to read

Not as many people would have an issue sharing spaces with fully transitioned people.

FirstShinyRobe asked, "Where's the biology?"

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/out-of-the-frying-pan/

But anyhow I don't think the vast majority of women care about sharing with "genuine" trans women. I feel like the current political agenda (self identification) forces people to take a polarised position and is also making a situation that currently works much worse (ie trans women living as women using facilities no questions asked).

Yes, this says it better than my muddled version did.

silly

One of the things that has worringly come out of the current trans movement , is a lot of confused teens now almost being pushed towards identifing as the opposite sex.

As someone who transitioned as a teen, do you see a growing trend in the amount of gender non comforming teens (who also possibly suffer from mh issues or are on the autistic spectrum) being put into tidy little gender boxes?

Do you see a distinction between what you felt and the more recent up take of trans in teens?

Its been discussed many time on here, that lots of women in childhood and teens have wanted to be boys or have rejected any thing feminine from early childhood. We have later just carried on in our biology and established our personalities.

But now we see many female teens being pressured by society and trans groups to accept they were born in the wrong body. I think someone here has statistics on the amount of detranisioning later on.

There are also parents now declaring their 4,5,6 year old boys are actually girls because like want long hair and like dresses and pink stuff.
I find this frightening and sad.

Oh and by the way welcome silly
I have read some of your blogs before and am please you found your way here.

ATransMum

Is gaslighting us.

They said "Women (cisgender or transgender)"

Enough said.

Transwomen are a subset of men, not women.

CharlieSierra asked "what is a woman"...

First, I subscribe to the very pragmatic definition that "gender" is a social fact, outside of one's own thoughts. It is what OTHER people experience as to your sex. If one is perceived by others as female, one is a woman.

CS also asked what are we to do with a recognition of the difference between the two... on the medical arena:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/one-size-fits-all/

But if you mean general society? First, support for the wives and girlfriends of autogynephilies:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/advice-for-wivesgirlfriends-of-autogynephiles/

Ensure that such women are NOT required to pretend that their experiences don't matter... and that they have to pretend that "of course dear... you were always a delicate, sweet, feminine, little girl... and I should have taken better care to not expect you to be the man of the house..." Ensure that such women know that these transgender folk are NOT like me!

Third, and perhaps unless you actually live in a community with a high number of such AGP transwomen, this won't apply... but I and others like me have experienced this because we are out numbered by at least 4 to 1... where I have to fight misconceptions that this conflation of the two types causes in even our personal lives:

"No, it is NOT my weekend to be with my daughter! No, I've never met her bio-mom. No, I have never had sexual intercourse with a woman. I adopted my daughter... and my HUSBAND is her adopted father!"

To a bisexual woman who was informed (against my wishes) of my history, "No, I'm not interested in having sex with you... I don't care if you have had sex with other transwomen... I'm not interested."

At a political gathering of transfolk and their wives, when talking to some of the women gathered away from their 'spouses'/'husbands': "No, my husband is NOT transgendered... I'm transsexual", met with incredulous stare since this wife thought she could "read" transwomen... and she was right, if limited to only AGPs:

sillyolme.wordpress.com/2015/12/13/a-passing-moment/

I don't find this as complex as many of you. I respect the intellectual approach. But women even on this thread are being asked to 'give an inch' and we all know what happen next - it's 'take a mile'.

I am still Spartacus: a transwoman is not a trans woman or a woman. Opening female spaces - academic, or medical, or simply private - to transwomen opens them to all men. This is my line in the sand.

Transwomen who have undergone radical surgery need to understand that women did not start this rearguard action without extreme and perverse provocation. If they are suffering now, because women have sought to be understanding for years about their particular situation, they should take it to the offices of those aggressive activists who have forced us back on our heels.

Silly: one is not a woman through being perceived as a woman. We both know this.

If one is perceived by others as female, one is a woman

Heh, no. The welcome mat for you is surely withdrawn at this point.

First, I subscribe to the very pragmatic definition that "gender" is a social fact, outside of one's own thoughts. It is what OTHER people experience as to your sex. If one is perceived by others as female, one is a woman.

IMO "gender" is how the social order of male supremacy manifests and socializes citizens.

Sex is simple biology.

How do you define female Silly?

Wow.... so many questions!

Welly (does this mean you are a gardening afficianado? Cause I am... though here in sunny California, I don't need to wear wellies....)

There have always been a number of girls who as teens flirt w/ the idea of being trans... I remember this one girl, 17, very feminine, who wanted to be a part of our crowd so badly. We let her tag along, knowing that she would get bored with the idea later, no need to dump on her fantasy.

On Tumbler, you can see a fair number of teenaged girls (its never boys) who claim to be "transgender" but aren't "sex dysphoric"... of course, they are straight.... and aren't even all that tomboyish. The actually FtM transfolk derisively call them "tucute" as in they are "too cute" to actually be trans. These will all be conventional heterosexual (or femme bisexual) women by the time that they graduate from college... just as we used to joke about "LUGs" back in my college days...

So, yeah, one can think that there is a serious problem that must be addressed. But in reality, these girls won't be doing anything serious... and time alone with fix the problem.

On the other hand, I correspond with both transkids and their parents. These kids have it rough. Some have VERY ugly family situations. These aren't kids being pushed into being trans... these are very seriously gender atypical kids with some very serious choices to make in their lives...

... and it is THEIR choice to make. We have to live in the real world, with real world consequences. Except for the tucutes, I've never met anyone who took them lightly... and I've NEVER met someone who was being "pushed" into be trans... nearly every parent, supportive or not, deeply wished that their child NOT be trans... many wished (demanded, like mine) that they be heterosexual and gender typical... some wished that they be gender typical but gay/lesbian... but NEVER trans.

How do you define female Silly?

I get the feeling that I'm being trolled by someone "JAQing off" here...

As they say in the courtroom, "asked and answered"!

Why? It's not a random question. Nobody's trolling you. What is female?

Do you seriously expect us to believe it's being perceived as female?

If one is perceived by others as female, one is a woman

Passing does not make one female.

And it is really offensive, misogynistic, dehumanizing and anti-woman to argue otherwise.

Why would you focus on gender as a trans thing and not join with feminists to eliminate the proscription of gender roles so that you could be happy with both your sex and your personality? I am always fascinated by that decision but never seem to get a response to my question, so would really appreciate it if you could elucidate.

So, several folk are welcoming my contributions... and some are just plain antipathetic. Y'all can sort that out yourself.

As for Gender again, I use the defintion found in this work:

press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/G/bo3629888.html

And, OP, I think you have part of the answer to your question right here on your thread! Fancy that!