16 y/o DS and NAMALT!

[FeedMeAndTellMeImPretty]

I've always had quite in depth discussions with my DCs about issues that affect us all. I consider my oldest DS to be a feminist, he is not on board with the objectification and sexism we see all around us, he has a lovely GF, of whom he is very respectful etc.

However, lately he seems to have adopted a NAMALT stance whenever we talk about things that affect women adversely and I don't know how to talk to him with appearing to attack his entire gender.

As an example we were talking about trans people in women only spaces such as refuges.

His take was that there should be no such place as a women only space, that women shouldn't tar all men with the same brush, that we would never be allowed a 'whites only' refuge because someone happened to have been assaulted by a black person or vice versa, so why are we allowed to keep all men out of a safe space for women because the person who attacked them happened to be a man.

He complained that there are no 'men only' refuges for male victims of DV ( I said that if men had seen a need for such refuges they could have built them, but that statistically women are far more likely to need protection from violent men than vice versa).

How do I talk to him about this without seeming like I hate and distrust all men? He knows that I was strangled and hit by a previous partner (not his dad, who was very gentle and non-threatening, but emotionally distant, much like him!)

I know these statistics don't prove that ALL men are a danger, but how can I kindly point out that there is a discrepancy because there needs to be one?

I've given him some stats but that's when he becomes defensive, I guess understandably so.

I had this with my 16 year old too. He also began making NAWP noises.

In the end I explained that white men are over-represented in almost (only 'cos I couldn't be sure it was all) all influential and powerful positions. We then discussed the explanations for this and narrowed it down to two. Either they were 'better' than everyone else (be that cleverer, hardworking or whatever) or society was rigged in their favour. This worked well especially because I simply provided him with facts and asked him to explain them. I also told him that I would rather he believe that men were simply better then some bullshit NAMALT gobshittery because if you are going to be a cunt at least be a cunt with the courage of your convictions (I may have phrased that slightly differently).

We also spent a lot of time discussing class.

Could you talk about the video game analogy, that being born male, white, heterosexual, middle class (if he is) is like being allocated a role in a game on the very easiest difficulty setting. I read it on a blog post somewhere which you could google, would give him a very age friendly way to think about oppression.

whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Miffer, he will just say that if women wanted these positions they could go for them, that there is no reason why men can't be a SAHP if needed, that it's just a matter of choosing to apply and that maybe fewer women applied etc. And that yes, the man must have been the best candidate at the time.

Barry, the video game thing sounds like a useful tool.

Thank you for all the comments, I know I haven't replied individually to all points but I have taken them all on board.

from the wonderful glosswitch

No reason why men can't be SAHPs, but they 'happen' to earn more so it makes 'sense' for the woman in the relationship to make the economic sacrifice. The 'choice' isn't made in a vacuum the same way that the 'choice' for a woman to work part time because she has caring responsibilities aka 'work life balance' isn't in a vacuum either. We can't have women applying for 'these jobs' until men are prepared to do they share of arse wiping and floor mopping.

Plenty of evidence that women are discriminated against in the job market. Women are more likely to get their papers accepted at conference if nobody knows they are written by a women. Jobs which become female dominated lose status and pay. www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html?_r=0

An individual woman can earn more than an individual man, and an individual man can juggle looking after his MIL, his toddler and holding down a part time job but that doesn't mean that structural oppression doesn't exist.

Loving the lowest difficulty setting analogy - (although plenty of white straight boys are born into deprived families and towns, I wouldn't say they have life on easy setting).

That ny times article is great.

Great thread, very interesting reading.

I think many of us have to work through these conflicting views in our own heads while we are on the journey to formulating our thoughts on really complex matters like this.

He's got a lot further than I had at 16!

I remember telling my mum in the kitchen one day as a youngish teen "isn't it weird how men are just better than women at everything, even the things women do more. I mean, there's loads of women hairdressers, and it's women who have long hair, but the top hairdressers are men. Women do most cooking, but head chefs are all men. In ballet (my then hobby), the top teachers are men. Nurses are women, but doctors are men".

I cannot believe those words all left my mouth. And that I didn't question why that might be. I wish my mum had challenged me to think about it more instead of just nodding along.

You see you say he's a feminist but nothing coming out of his mouth is remotely feminist.

He's not. He perhaps, at best, thinks some women somewhere get a slightly harder time than some men.

Why don't you ask him whether he actually thinks women are oppressed by men? And if by some remote chance he says yes ask what he thinks needs to happen in order for that oppression to stop.

I suspect he blames women for their own oppression, which is pretty nasty but not uncommon as seen by practically all the men on FWR. He probably hasn't even thought as far as women not having the same opportunities or the barriers they face judging by the responses you think he'd give. The meme attached is basic but quite effective.

Avoid 'telling' him anything it won't work, it will just make him defensive and build up those barriers. No matter how right you are telling someone they are wrong and then telling them why you are right does not work. Especially teenagers, especially boys.

Rather than "women don't get certain jobs because of men and i can show you the figures" try:
"Why do you think women are underrepresented?"
"Do you think that's fair?"
"Why do people give jobs to people who look like them?"
"What issues could arise if some sections of society are underrepresented?"
"How would you solve those issues?"

Lead him to the answers. Avoid what he will see as you "having a go at him".
Go on give it a try. Only questions.

Sorry I've had a rethink and I think my post was a bit harsh. He's 16 and probably, understandably, completely unaware of his own privilege. I think Bitofacow's approach is good. Perhaps getting him to explore what oppression looks like from a woman's perspective.

Bitofacow

Indeed, that was how I handled it.

MeImPretty

And he believes this coincidentally happens across all fields at all times? That's just poor critical thinking. Have a chat with him about probability.

The problem is if you force feed boys on issues they may rebel. With the amount of discussion on things my boys have been exposed to both sides of the argument. But the impact nowadays comes from youtube channels. Anti feminist like Karen Straughan (aka Girl Writes What) to ShoeonHead and Sugartits who all oppose radical feminism. The you have the Factual Feminist Prof Christina Hoff Sommers which challenges trains of thought. Never mind Thunderfoot and the other males who challenge feminists claims. There are feminists that have youtube channels Laci Green was picked up by MTV although Marina Shutup is probably more engaging and you don't feel like she is talking down to you.

But with so much out there that our boys can find at a click you will need to listen to both sides so your discussions are on an even footing. And some adults need to learn that swearing doesn't not make your argument better it just makes the user look stupid. I have spent hours sat down with my boys watching youtube videos that they bring up about issues so we can discuss logically, fairly and with the arguments from both sides so we can be as objective as possible.

Miffed you asked how you could "point this out" I was suggesting you don't point it out.
Teenage brains are developing, teenager often try out ideas to see how they feel it does not mean they are fixed in stone. He may have heard a friend say something, and tried out he he feels saying it. When he questions himself he may go on yo reject it.
Continuing dialogue - which is what you are doing - is the best way. Keep the lines of communication open and allow him to test ideas. He may be using you as a sounding board.

He calls himself a feminist, he respects you and your views. Sounds like a feminist to me. Well done.

This reminds me of the arguments frequently tripped out about 'if only you asked nicely' or 'you have to engage men'. Onus is always on women to be thoughtful of the feelings of men.

I suppose that's why I'm balking at it.

If he was a man I'd tell him to "get a brain, read a book and get over yourself ffs, and clean the toilet while your at it".

However, he is the OPs teenage son.

Hmmm, I feel a bit like scallops. Ok the boy is only 16 but that's old enough to be doing all manner of things, and certainly by that age, a girl will already have actually come up against the oppression of her sex countless times so why should we pussyfoot around simply talking to boys about society being sexist and patriarchal??

I have girl children and they are a lot younger than 16 - they already know lots about sexism and misogyny because they are subjected to it. I don't have a boy but if I did I would want to start from there; by explaining that his awareness of these things is much less heightened because they don't happen to him and that he needs to really think hard about that and properly get his head round that simple fact. If he does that half the battle is won and then he can begin to think of himself as a feminist ally.

I have had a similar conversation with my kids about white privilege. We talked about how we are blinkered to racism because it isn't being done to us. They are 12 and 10 but they got it - and they didn't take the hump at it being explained to them which status group we have been assigned to.

Smashing, yep the conversations are brilliant and the way to go.

I work with teenagers and 'telling' any of them anything only has limited effect. If shouting worked we'd all behave perfectly. You could 'tell' him anything but I assume the OP wants him to believe it and then live it. Waaaay more complicated.

Telling anybody they don't really understand the issues gets people's backs up no matter how right you are, and this goes double for teenagers.

OP I am not saying you are doing this. Sounds like your discussions are great and I bet you are having more impact than you think.

I think part of the problem with trying to point out about street harassment etc is that he gets this himself as he dresses in quite an unusual way. He refuses to go certain places because of the shouting comments he gets, so telling him that this is something women have to endure doesn't ring true to him as he gets it too, which I guess is where his inclusive "what about the menz" comes from!

We went into our local McDs at 5am on the way home from holiday and I thought he'd be safe at that time of day, but no, there was a bunch of kids from his school who started jeering at him, even though he was with his family! He has strangers come up to him and touch his hair when he's out and doesn't feel like he can tell them to piss off, so I can see how living his own life of 'oppression' could make him less sensitive to other people's experiences.

He is very tolerant of others, talks inclusively about 'gender fluid' people at work and has a live and let live attitude that sadly isn't always reciprocated.

I will continue to bring things to his attention when I think it will provoke an interesting chat without preaching and will check out some of those you tubers so that I can also see what he may be taking on board from elsewhere!

Honestly he sounds brilliant. Making links and thinking things through.

He is treated like that because he is young. Question - "Do you think the way people treat you will change as you get older?"
"If you were a woman would the shouting and touching continue?"
"How would you feel if you thought you would always be treated like this?"

When I go out with the kids I work with you realise what a hard time they are given on the street and then they are demonized if they react.