So called honour..

[ProfessorPreciseaBug]

Can we please all complain to the BeeB about the phrase honour killing. It is not. It is premeditated domestic murder.

I suspect the simple act of changing the reference in news stories would help change attitudes.

The BBC places the words in inverted commas. It's quite clear (to me anyway) the BBC is reporting the views of the bigoted idiots who think there is such a thing as an "honour killing" . I'm happy for the BBC to highlight such appalling people exist.

I agree they shouldn't legitimise it by calling it honour killing, even in quote marks. "Premeditated domestic murder due to a sexist concept of honour" would be appropriate.

Do you really think the BBC are trying to legitimise it? I see it as quite the opposite- highlighting what a ridiculous concept it is.

I think it should be called "gender-based violence" because that is that it is.

I do think honour sounds like a distasteful euphemism.

*what it is

I would compare it to the use of the term images of child abuse, rather than child porn.

I wouldn't. People always complain about others writing "child porn", but porn has never been a positive word. Perhaps one could argue that it is slowly becoming one, what with people talking of "food porn" or "landscape porn" whenever such a thing is described in detail, but if so, we shouldn't talk about porn when adults are involved, either.

"Premediated domestic murder" sounds good to me. Much better than "honour killing" - my god, in Germany the press at least acknowledge that it is murder. (Though calling it "honour murder" isn't that much better)

Don't exaggerate Vestal there is nothing in the BBC reports of the recent case which does not acknowledge it is murder. The BBC also reported the victim's parents referred to it as such , but clearly in the context they were as disgusted by the concept of "honour killing" as any decent person should be.

I don't see how anyone could put the spin on the BBC 's reporting that is being put on it here. The use of "honour killing" is legitimate to emphasise the stupidly and bigotry of those who think honour killing is a justified concept.

Or would you prefer the BBC didn't mention it and you can then all imagine no one thinks "honour killings" is a concept anymore ?

"Premeditated domestic murder due to a sexist concept of honour" makes much clearer what it is and what our society thinks of it.

And I actually think that "premediated domestic murder" suffices, after all, they can still mention that the girl had a boyfriend and that her father didn't like that because of his woman-hating attitude, and that he had her killed because he hated her for being a woman. (I think perhaps we should say "woman-hating" instead of "sexism", to make it clear to those men that we are not fooled, that we know that they hate their daughters and sisters, and that we detest them for it.)

The use of the term in the way the BBC use it makes me more likely to open the link.

I think if anything it is edging towards identifying it as a hate crime. It is a marker of the hateful thinking which motivated the crime.

If the naming of particular crimes is up for discussion, what about the word 'domestic'? You could argue that this word is similarly problematic

No police force in the UK refers to violence against women or children as " a domestic". The term "domestic violence "/ domestic abuse" is used by charities, advice organisations.

If sex were to be added to the list of characteristics protected against hate crimes, then these killings would be hate crimes against women, and we could call them that.

That should have happened long ago.

Also worth noting that even if the media stops calling it an honour killing and calls it a premeditated domestic murder or something, doesn't mean that the criminal justice system, psychologists, criminologists, etc, will forget that this particular concept of 'honour' is at the root.

Yes, and those are the groups of people who need to understand the murderers.
The general public, though, just has to strongly disapprove of murder, and I think it is a good thing if such a murderer sees on the media that people do not think he was in any way honourable, that they don't even mention that he thought he was, that they treat him like what he is, a common murderer who murdered to further his own selfish goals.

I mean, is it necessary for people in general to be able to identify it as a phenomenon? If the general public knows that it is a thing, then other would-be murderers also know that it is a thing, and might imitate it.

If we used another highly specific term for the same thing, then statistics on how common it is, etc, would still be possible, and that's what matters, isn't it?

I work in social care setting with young people affected by domestic and sexual violence, and we refer to it as 'so called honour killing' off the back of advice of key women's charities.

I think its important to use the 'so called' bit - absolutely.

I agree, though, that 'violent hate crimes against women' would be a much more accurate description.

"Premediated domestic murder"

That could cover a wife murdering her husband for the insurance money. You lose the immediacy of knowing the motivation was the appalling concept of loss of honour.

I work in social care setting with young people affected by domestic and sexual violence, and we refer to it as 'so called honour killing' off the back of advice of key women's charities

I think its important to use the 'so called' bit - absolutely

The BBC reports used that expression. "Premediated domestic murder" tells you far less in a headline. Headlines are intended to grab attention. If you want to change people's attitudes getting their attention is a fairly basic starting point.

I rather think pre-meditated murder is a pretty big headline..

It doesn't capture the misogynistic aspect. It would not catch my eye on the BBC site. It could refer to anything from any "domestic" situation to mafia hit men.

The headline could just say "(name of person) murdered by family member"
I don't like the term honour killing at all.
Interesting that we've become so inured to murder that it needs an attention grabbing headline

I do see Lass' point about the term, 'so called honour killing,' highlighting the fact that the murderer had a misogynistic attitude towards the victim as a result of feeling that men in some way own women or should be allowed to control their lives and, if they can't, then their masculinity is in question. However, I do not like the term 'honour' being used to describe this feeling. Honour suggests a feeling of calm and selflessness which is completely lacking in these cases so it shouldn't be called that.

For example when youngsters steal cars and drive them like maniacs, it's called 'joyriding' (and not 'so called joyriding'), because the crime gives the culprit a sense of joy but there is no implication that this is actually a joyful thing to do. However, I doubt that murderers in 'honour killings' actually feel any honour (the violence of these murders actually implies they are feeling anger, hatred and frustration)but the term does imply that the crime is linked, however misguidedly, to the concept of honour so it's completely wrong.