Can we have a general chat about raising awesome sons?

[SwissWank]

How we can raise feminist sons in a patriarchy? Thoughts, suggestions?

I think it's important for kids to realise that touching another person should never be about guilt so they need to want to..and the other person needs to want as well.

I always remember going to college to do A levels in a different part of our town. The area which I was brought up in was quite insular but both the girls and boys I hung around with in our area were very much equal. We hung around together and all did activities such as skiing and motorbike riding etc. It didn't occur to me that you would only have girls as your friends or that boys would see you as different or weaker. Some of my best mates were boys. The people who I made friends with at college were very different. The boys only saw the girls as potential mates and didn't want to include them with recreational activies. It really opened up my eyes and subsequently I have always encouraged mixed sex friendships with my boys and brought them up to see children rather than girls and boys and that individuals have differering strengths and weaknesses that are due to personality rather than the genitals they were born with.

Across the pond, your kids are my age(ish) and I personally feel it was a very good time to be born. Much more gender neutral, coming out of earlier sexism and before the pinkification and pornification of younger people. Not saying your parenting didn't also help (obviously it did) but I think the it was a better time socially

What I have done a lot is refusing to treat them as 'boys' (in opposition to girls).
So I have looked at what I wanted them to be as adults and try to nurture said qualities in them.

Then I've spent quite a bit of time insisting that there is no such a thing as 'women interest/work' or 'men work/interest'.
I have tried to point out women who were inventors/doing research/having nobel prices/at the head of state and to talk about them. Just mentioning they were doing that and then, as they got older, pointidly reminding them that women can do just as well as men.

But also talking about the fact you can talk about a group (so women but also white/blacks etc..) and say that they are 'all' like this. We are all individuals first and thnsg shuld be looked this way first.
It gave some interesting discussions in primary when all girls or all boys were punished for doing xxx (usually the boys of course)...

My dcs are pre-teens/(nearly) teens so porn isn't somehting we have talked about yet. Or rather each time I've vaguely mentioned the word 'having sex' in any occasion, I've had a 'Euuugh that's disgusting' so I don;t think they are ready to hear about porn, how it's made etc...
My plan though is to insist on how fabricated it is, how none of the people involved take any pleasure at all and how it shows a very restricted idea of what sex is. Then talk about women, degradation (of both men and women for that matter etc...) as well as RESPECT for the other person (I'm careful here because after all nothng is telling me that one of them might be gay after all so I want to insist on the overall issue rather that just on women iyswim).

calamity I've had the same sort of experience as a child/teenager. However, this is not something I've been able to reproduce with my dcs.

dc1 did play with girls until Y3~4 and then drifted apart.
dc2 just refused to even hear about girls (:() and is still like this is some ways. But then he had a lot of issues with socialising and is probably somewhere on the spectrum. He clearly got the message boys on one side, girls on the other from nursery and then refused to move from there...

I'm very proud of my eleven year old son with regards to this. A few years ago he was all "no I don't like that, it's for GIRLS" or worse "x is so rubbish, he throws like a girl". Now he is questioning and fighting this whenever it comes up. He had a friend over last week and I heard them chatting. Friend said "oh B says she's really into Dr Who but I bet she isn't really, she's a girl. She probably just fancies David Tennant". Ds says "she knows more about it than I do, being a girl has got nothing to do with anything, stop being an arse."
Aside the fact that he called his friend an arse which made him sound like a curious mixture of Eton boy and Catherine Tate's swearing Nan, I was incredibly proud. As Dumbledore says "it takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to your enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends".

I also am worried about porn and increasing misogyny as he enters secondary school. I really want him to free able to come to us if he comes up against things he is unsure about, as he currently is.

We are very equal at home with regards to household chores (I mow the lawn, his dad often cooks etc) but there are unfortunately issues within the wider family, very anachronistic attitudes with regards to "women's work". SIL and her husband have "blue jobs and pink jobs" ffs, and you'd be right of course in guessing 99% of the childcare and daily housework is pink. Nephew is 7 and already picking up on this!

Swiss You have a very valid point. I don't know about it being better back then as far as gender neutrality as IMHO it was the tail end of certain gender stereotypes and roles still being accepted as 'the norm', but it was just before the dawn of social media and widespread internet porn usage.

I do think sexualization of young people (worse for young women than young men) is a definite problem, much more than 15-20 years ago. But I think gender roles are much less 'strict' than they were back when. Even in the late 80s/early 90s male nurses, female firefighters, let alone a stay at home dad were still thought of as 'odd', even 'unsuitable'. There was quite a brow-ha-ha about a male Kindergarten teacher when DS1 started school. That wouldn't be thought of twice now.

Not to say we don't still have quite a ways to go, though.

bloody autocorrect! Brou-ha-ha

If either of my kids (I have one of each, aged under 7) say something like 'that's a girl's [whatever]' or 'those are for boys' I make up an arbitrary rule like 'ok, ice-cream is only for people with black hair'. None of our family have black hair, but my kids do like ice-cream and so they disagree with my silly rule. I then say 'so if ice-cream should be for everyone, why should only girls have [eg]shopkins/only boys play with trains' etc.
Hopefully it makes them think a bit, we generally end up agreeing that anyone can like anything and it doesn't matter whether they're a boy or girl. My kids come out with stereotypical stuff from time to time but they sure as hell don't hear it from me or DH.

Regarding consent, sometimes I make this point by deliberately annoying them in some way (eg gently prodding their arm) then when they say stop I tell them "OK, you told me to stop and so I will. It wouldn't be good if I kept doing this when you told me to stop, would it?" They're too young for anything sexual yet but I'm hoping to lay a foundation for when they're older.

By 'too young for anything sexual' I meant for sexual consent to be an issue for them in their lives.

I like your arbitrary ice-cream rule example Felyne, I might borrow that!

Place narking

My DSes are 5 and 2 - the two year old knows nothing about boys and girls yet, and DS1 was slow to pick up what the difference is (hair and eyelashes for years).

I don't let any remark about 'that's for girls' or 'that's girlie' go un commented upon - especially if it's from other adults in their hearing.

I don't police their cartoons (as long as age appropriate), although some of DS1's choices make me cringe a bit (Strawberry shortcake, Shimmer and Shine) - due to the plot lines (I delete any particularly awful ones).

DS1 and I have a running argument because I've decided that there weren't enough female dogs in Paw Patrol so I insist that Zuma is a girl (he tells me Zuma isn't and I make him try to justify why until he rolls his eyes and wanders off smirking at me)

DS2 is in a pink phase, so I let him have pink crocs, or whatever else he chooses - I feel myself gravitate towards a the traditional boy role toys (honestly, because that's what I'd prefer), but make sure that I step back and let them choose barbie or skylanders or whatever for themselves.

As others have said, there will always be outside influences. I try not to make a big deal, but always challenge and support (why shouldn't she play rugby? Of course you can have the purple one if you like, it's just a colour).

Once they're older we'll start working on consent (they're already pretty good kids - sharing, taking turns, looking after each other) and privacy (not an issue with DS2 who has always preferred clothes, DS1, not so much!)

I think that's all you can do. Model good behaviour, challenge biased ideas, and support their choices.

What do you call 'privacy' choc?

So the way people say a girl band for a rock band with all female members even though no one would ever call Oasis a boy band That's not a great example since 'boy band' = One Direction and 'girl band' = The Saturdays Oasis = Britpop or whatever.

That's not a great example since 'boy band' = One Direction and 'girl band' = The Saturdays Oasis = Britpop or whatever.

So what about this? Lots of images of The Bangles and Vixen on that top row.

I've got 2 girls and a boy. The eldest is already a mini-feminist and self identifies as a tomboy. In her world that seems to mean she likes sport (football and swimming mainly) and isn't into Disney Princesses and dressing up, we have spoken about how people can like whatever they like and that doesn't change them being a girl or a boy. Might have to ask her what DS's Frozen obsession means about him if not liking it makes her a tomboy.

DS is too young to know if we've had an effect yet but DH works PT locally and does most a lot of the school run/attending sports day/taking kids to the doctors which is important to both that all our kids see men doing caring roles. There's a few male teachers at their primary school who seem to be really popular so that's good. We do the swapping of genders when reading stories and since DS is the youngest we already have lots of toys that might be considered 'girls toys' so he's as happy playing with the toy kitchen as he is playing with the trainset (DD2 loves playing with the trainset with him so that's good as well). And all toys are for all children in this house.

I think we can only lead by example. My son thinks I'm the toughest, most assertive, confident person he knows. I'm the boss at work, I'm the boss of our family business, (two jobs). He watches me work my ass off with my partner to provide for our family. He assumes this is the norm because i have shown him this is our normal. I vent at patronising tv/media content with him (those godawful always adverts - i dont need your fucking permission to excel at sport) and he is growing up to understand that women can do whatever the hell they want, just like he can. I just need to check myself sometimes and remember that if he picks a partner who isn't quite as feisty and in charge as I am, that that is ok too. It's getting a balance that is important to me.

My son's only three but I'm concerned about this already. As a pp said, leading by example is probably best. I'm careful with the language I use when playing with him but occasionally slip up and refer to most toys, like Lego people and soft toys as 'he' unless they're clearly female.

He sees me and dp sharing domestic roles and working outside the home.

What concerns me is that he sees me being spoken to in a less than gentle way by dp sometimes and not 'giving out' back. I'm very anti arguing in front of children but I don't want him thinking that is how a man speaks to a woman.

They're only little - so privacy is not walking in on people in their rooms/the bathroom, shutting the door when they use the toilet, realising it's not polite to sit half naked on the settee fiddling with their penis, that if there are non-family guests they at least need to be wearing pants, that they shouldn't randomly poke/pull bits of other people for attention (eg shoving hand down my top - hangover from breastfeeding) etc.

Part modesty, part realising that there are places on themselves and other people that you don't touch in polite company.

Plus basic internet safety (they are heavily monitored, but I like to cover all eventualities - at least with the 5 year old)

Marking place. I think it helps in our house that DH SAH's with me

I think good male role models are tremendously important here.

However I would think encouraging mixed friendship groups from an early age could be key. Same is applicable to race/religion/disability too.

I have 2 sons who I'm trying to raise as feminists.
I confess part of the way I do this is by buying female characters for video games (Disney Infinity, Lego Dimensions) and then showing then how powerful they are.
The majority of DS1s friends are girls, he says he finds them more interesting :)
I was interested in how sexist one of my nephews was 'this is for girls' and 'that is a boy thing' when his mother is such a strong character and they have a male childminder.