Why are people so defensive towards alleged rapists?

[PinkyofPie]

If you're charged with a crime that goes to court, unless there's a reason to retain anonymity (such as it involves your child therefore naming you effectively names them) the press can name you if they wish to do so. Be it burglary, assault, theft or rape.

So why, every time a rapist is on trial, do people hop about saying "innocent until proven guilty" "they shouldn't be named they're tarred for life now" etc. But literally NO other crime.

A few days ago my local paper posted a picture on their FB newsfeed of 2 men on trial accused of raping a 18yo in the park. The above comments were there and even calls to "name and shame" the victim and also "will she get sentenced if they're found not guilty". Perhaps because "not guilty" does not mean innocent and if the law worked that way even fewer women would report rape than there is now

One of the men accused also posted mocking both the trial and people who actually had sensible comments. I looked at his profile, which is public, and there's lots of people saying "good luck mate" for today (verdict) and memes about liars getting their comeuppance.

Today both men were unanimously found guilty by the jury in just 7 hours.

No comments so far on the post about their guilt.

Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape? The poor survivor has had to read all that sympathy for them

Redactio
Is this what you meant?
AyeAmarok Fri 29-Jul-16 19:36:22
I think it comes down to the fact that a large proportion of men, maybe even half?, have had sex with someone they have had to take advantage of, coerce, manipulate or force to have sex with them. Be that through picking someone random who is very drunk at a club and getting her away from her friends who would keep her safe, to making a move on a female friend when she's drunk, to telling lies to get her into bed, etc.

If so, no where does she really mention statistics, and she put a question mark anyway. She does give examples which cover so many possible scenarios where there is some sort of coercion that it may not be too extreme, or fanatical, of her to suggest that maybe even half ? of men may have had sex in this way at some point in their life.

And then, if to the etc you add men getting sex from a woman with special needs; or a man getting sex after pushing on with full sex, even when there is reluctance on the woman's part, after some petting: they are already together, all he has to do is..push down.. lie on top, just a little more natural weight...no one even quite knows.... Maybe, if not quit half of men have done this, an awful lot have.

redacto
Who are "us"?

Maybe Aye's suggested statistic also answer's the OP's question - Can anyone offer an explanation as to why people take this attitude with rape, and only rape?

If fifty per cent of men are rapists, that is shocking beyond comprehension. The only comparable crime to rape or sexual assault is murder, and I think we can safely say that fifty per cent of men are not murderers. So we are left with the bald possibility that one man in every two that we will every meet (statistically) has committed the second most serious crime that it is possible to inflict on another human being.

Every second man may have done this. Think of all the men we have ever met, no matter how briefly. Every other one of them may raped. Perhaps the enormity of this is too great, so we create rape myths in order to cope.

From a slightly different perspective, I wonder how many people are booking Cliff Richard for gigs these days...

Loads, because the general consensus is that the poor darling was framed by the evil machinations of someone who was just after the money. Same as they were for Rolf Harris, Max Clifford, Alan Johnson and all the other high profile rape cases recently.

Of course it isn't, but the notion that an accusation of rape effectively has no significant impact on the target of that accusation is quite clearly nonsense.

Thanks for the inference that I have mental health problems, a tad ablist, but this is MN after all.

It is not merely a notion that being accused of rape has no significant impact on the man. Apart from in rare cases such as Hairy's husband, most men who have been falsely accused go back to their families, jobs and lives with few if any questions asked. Even and especially when the "false accusation" hasn't been tested in court.

I know two men who were "falsely accused" of rape. Neither were tried, neither of the victims were tried either, the men just walked straight back into their lives. One of the women committed suicide a while after because she had been hounded out her home, job and the area she had been brought up in and his family would simply not leave her be, because she had dared to try and bring her attacker to justice. The other woman has left the country, for the same reasons.

If those were the only two instances of this occurring, then you might have a point. But now, with every dropped charge and 'no-criming' a woman who has already been a victim of a violent assault is further victimised by people who think it's their job to point out that all women lie.

It's also been my recent experience that a man who has been convicted and imprisoned for viewing images of child sex abuse online, and storing a couple of thousand of them on his computer so, in the scheme of things, not so prolific a consumer of those images has had people falling over themselves to excuse his behaviour and suggest that if those images weren't so freely available, then he wouldn't have done it.

So, no, in general, with very few exceptions, I stand by my comment that very few men face any stigma from being "falsely accused" of sexual crimes.

Every second man may have done this. Think of all the men we have ever met, no matter how briefly. Every other one of them may raped. Perhaps the enormity of this is too great, so we create rape myths in order to cope.

The enormity of men being rapists (or at least sex abusers) is huge. That's why I get so frustrated with people saying that men aren't a risk to women. They blatantly are and there's no way for a woman to tell if a man she meets is a rapist or a nice guy.

grim I think (? Sorry if I'm wrong) that you took offence to the phrase schroedingers rapist on another thread. But what you said above, that's what we mean about shroedingers rapist

www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/09/05/cdc-nearly-1-in-5-women-have-been-raped/

KindDo: "Maybe half" is a statistic.
Tychos: "Us" is all women and people like Ayeamorak make us all look ridiculous.

pinky an allied OP could be why is it that whenever we have a post about rape, there is an influx of posters nitpicking and telling us (by us I mean regular posters on this board) that we are wrong?
You'd almost think some people don't want us to discuss this

Anyway, talking about unlikely defences, has anyone else been following the India Chipchase trial? I was horrified to find articles with headlines saying "daughter of prominent doctor drank 6 jaegerbombs the night she died" as if that was somehow the main reporting feature as to how she came to be dead in a strangers flat, having been strangled.
Luckily it's been taken down now due to an outcry but his whole defence borrows heavily from rape myths.

www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2016/29/the-sun-and-the-culture-of-victim-blaming

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-36916442

I agree with AyeAmarok numbers. I cannot remember which study I had come across bit yes most men have actually 'raped' a woman in their life.
I remember well because I had read the research paper to DH who vehementally was telling it just was NOT possible.

In reality, a lot of men will have had sex with someone who is drunk, assumed consent etc etc They will not have seen that as rape and will be most upset if someone is telling them yes indeed this WAS rape.
We are talking about the well known fathers there, people who are respected in the community, are well thought off and most importantly will see themselves as someone who is kind, helping people out and always respectful (of the law and others)

I'll have to find that research again. Someone else had post it MN.

Oh give over. "Maybe half" is not a statistic. And it was actually "maybe half?" with a question mark. I was supposing, not quoting a bloody statistic.

Obviously I did not mean that half of all men are rapists. What I do think is that many, "maybe half?", of men have had sexual contact of some sort with a woman that probably would not have happened, at least to the same extent, if the woman hadn't been drunk (or less able to be direct for some other reason).

Anecdotally, from my own experience and that of my friends, most if not all have had experiences where they've been with a man, they've been getting more and more intimate and they start to feel uncomfortable about it and say slow down/stop/not tonight or they want to keep their clothes on/touch over clothes or just kiss and talk or whatever, and they get persuaded to take it further by the guy.

Persuaded, and yes they go along with it. But is that enthusiastic consent? Not really, not in my book. Is it rape? Probably not. But I'd feel quite ill if I'd had to persuade a man into having sex (or whatever sexual contact) with me in that way as he didn't really want to do it. But the next day guys are bragging that they managed to get her to give him head/touch her vagina/get her naked/have sex. You know, all the things we hear guys talk about. Like it was a conquest; a challenge they overcame with their manly manliness.

If you've never had this happen then lucky you. Most women have though. And I think many guys have pushed their luck with women. But none of these men would consider "pushing their luck" to be rape/coercion or sexual assault. They just think it's part of the mating dance.

I agree AyeAmok

Sorry, AyeAmarok

Misrepresenting Aye nicely there, redactio.

Why should one woman's view make all women look ridiculous, redactio? Do all men look ridiculous because Boris Johnson doesn't know the difference between Nigeria and Nepal, or whatever gaffe he's made this week?

fake rape allegations dont ruin peoples lives?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heartbroken-mum-teen-who-killed-8518826#ICID=sharebar_twitter

fake rape allegations dont ruin peoples lives?

Generally no.

MissJoy
That case you linked was certainly tragic. That young man killed himself though even though the complaint was withdrawn after two weeks.
Meanwhile, the proportion of people falsely accused of rape is misicule compared to the number who were actually raped most of whom never even
reported it.

A lot of women who have been raped kill themselves too, or make suicide attempts or self-harm. None ever have the life they were going to before the rape; and many suffer from addictions, depression or difficult relationships. It would be safe to say that for most their lives are ruined in some way either for a long time or forever.

Also missjoy I've just had a quick read of that article and unless I'm missing something that case was never actually proven to be a false accusation.

According to that article, the girl made an accusation but then withdrew it a few weeks later. He then went on to commit suicide.

I know there is a tendency for people to assume that if an allegation is withdrawn then that must mean it was a false accusation but that simply isn't case. There are many reasons why a woman would withdraw a genuine complaint of rape. So just because she withdrew her allegation does not mean she was lying about it.

Him killing himself doesn't automatically mean the accusation was false either. People who commit crimes, including rape, can also kill themselves.

I will read the article properly in a minute as like I said I just gave it a quick read but from what that article says it was never actually proven to be a false accusation. People just assume that a withdrawn complaint = false accusation and because he committed suicide later then that definitely = false accusation.

However I feel a bit wrong talking about it as he's dead now so he can't defend himself. So I'll stop now.

Just read it again and just based off that article alone, the case wasn't actually proven to be a false accusation.

There are no mentions of the girl being charged with making a false accusation and I'm assuming that if she had been it would have been mentioned. So if no charges were brought then it obviously isn't known for a fact that the accusation was false.

The boy also had a prior history of low mood and depression before the accusation was made so it's not unbelievable that his suicide might have been linked to that.

Interestingly enough his uncle actually says that he would like to meet the girl and hear her side of the story. He also says he is angry at the girl. It made me think that if it turned out that he had in fact raped her (which I'm not saying he did and we likely wouldn't know if he had now that he is dead) would he still feel angry towards her? For speaking out for being raped?

Again I'm not saying that he raped her however I am saying that we don't know for sure she falsely accused him.

We need to be careful about what we label as a false accusation.

A lot of women who have been raped kill themselves too, or make suicide attempts or self-harm. None ever have the life they were going to before the rape; and many suffer from addictions, depression or difficult relationships. It would be safe to say that for most their lives are ruined in some way either for a long time or forever.

And YY to this.

Of course they're women so their suffering doesn't matter as much...

Is that a world-wide statistic, or just based in the country where you live

Nope it's not a statistic anywhere, it's ayeamaroks own thoughts.

But is that enthusiastic consent?

Is enthusiastic consent different from normal consent? I didn't realise we had to give enthusiastic consent...

From a slightly different perspective, I wonder how many people are booking Cliff Richard for gigs these days...

Hopefully none.

peggy a useful video on enthusiastic consent. And yes it should be given.

Felascloak yes I've noticed on these type of threads that, rather than engaging in a useful debate with salient points, some posters will passively aggressively pick at points or wording in our posts to try and derail the conversation so we have a thread full of posts about semantics. Now I wonder what kind of people would do that....

I noticed upthread when someone gave a list of men whose lives have not being ruined after raping someone, rather than say "actually yes Mike Tyson is still a multi millionaire and much loved a-lister" the tone was "HA you're WRONG woman, so and so has never been convicted, therefore your whole point is WRONG".

I'm just gonna say it - it reeks of reasoning that can only ever come from an entitled male