Why do (some) men sexually abuse/rape?

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

Can you help me understand why men sexually abuse. I've experienced a range from a pretty awful rape by a friend - to, in longterm marriage, a low level level of coercion and ignoring consent over certain small acts - and in years past experiences that fall in between like unwanted drunken sex.

This is just background to my post. I'm less concerned about addressing my individual circumstances, more in hearing thoughts about why men do this.

It seems to me like a lot of men to different degrees ignore or push the boundaries re consent. (Not all of course)

Are there explanations or understandings of this, including in a wider context, I don't know exactly what I'm asking. I just want to understand a bit more, like has this always been an issue throughout history? Was it understood differently? What is the link to gender roles? To biology? Are the different ends of the spectrum about the same thing?

I couldn't see another thread addressing this but happy to be directed.

[ASAS]

I agree that depressingly it's fairly basic. We are worth less financially. Pay us 80p to every male pound then our "NO!" becomes 20% less valid.

Get our status right down there in the lowly realms of caring, teaching, nursing, parenting. Might be crucial to society but it's not going to earn us power or status or the men would already be doing it.

Get our bodies out there, full public display. Want a look? Oh, go on. Want a touch? Ah, might as well. You can see breasts with your news (but heaven forbid, a breastfeeder, in PUBLIC!), you can buy a 4 year old a bikini.

Murder us. Go on, murder us. Don't worry about the media frenzy, in a week it'll be someone else's headache. Don't worry if you're supposed to be the men who love us, in a week it'll be someone else's headache. Don't worry if we're prostitutes, out here with the sisters and doing it for ourselves. Don't worry if we're 15, everyone knows what 15 means.

Rape? Well go on then, you might as well.

[cadnowyllt]

No thanks

[iremembericod]

There was a BBC (C4 actually - can't remember now) programme on a while back about attitudes to rape and one thing that was incredibly striking was that men knew exactly what constituted rape. It was the women who were more 'forgiving' about what was and was not rape.

It therefore seemed that men do know what they are doing.

Reminds me of my exh who used to say "I wish you would enjoy it more".

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Setting aside the stranger in an alley situation I think Carol's post is very pertinent. I'm not particularly persuaded by the men don't see women as human explanation , particularly not in the case where there is an existing relationship. There is centuries of cultural baggage to the idea women need to be persuaded

The concept of martial rape in UK law is less than 30 years old. The joke quoted by Carole is only one of many. If there is a thread on here today about slutty women being up for sex it's an attitude that still prevails.

[VestalVirgin]

So education/messages in society etc or arseholes? Quite different answers.

Well, obviously the arseholes work to make their attitude more acceptable to the rest of society. Only 30% of men are rapists, most of the remaining 70% have been convinced by the rapists that consent is oh so complicated, and they could be wrongly accused of rape and that it is in their best interest to take a rapist's side in a court case. (This is only possible because even the "good" men still view their own desires as more important than women's rights.)

The messages of course help rapists to get away with rape, so in a way to contribute to the prevalence of rape.

I'm not particularly persuaded by the men don't see women as human explanation , particularly not in the case where there is an existing relationship.

This is what makes patriarchy possible. Men's ability to "love" some individual women while not considering women, in general, quite human, and in fact not even seeing those individual women they know as human.

It's like your attitude towards a pet. You love your pet, but you don't consider it human, and will have it sterilized without asking for its consent. You will also quite probably not demand that the man who ran your cat over with his car be punished for murder in the same way he would if the cat was human.

If an existing relationship meant that a man sees a woman as human, we would never have had to fight for voting rights.

[chunkymum1]

I think education must be part of the solution. But I don't mean just teaching children/teens in PSHE about consent. I think rape/sexual assault is very much linked to the continued objectification and comoditisation of women and women's bodies. It worries me that nowadays these are too often dressed up as 'empowering' to women and as a sign of sexual equality. Increased openness about sex and sexuality seems to have been hijacked by some as meaning that treating women as sexual objects (page 3, porn etc) is healthy and a celebration of women's sexual freedom. I read a thread on here recently with a link to a telegraph article on the experience in Germany of legalised prostitution which was horrifying. In a society where this is the interpretation of sexual liberation for women it is no surprise to me that some men treat women in this way.

I know some wonderful men who do not agree with this type of treatment of women (and hope that I am raising DS to be one of them) but I know that they find it difficult to express this view with the 'lads' without being seen as a bit weird and prudish. For example, a friend declined a visit to a lap dancing club on a work night out and was told he was no fun, needed to lighten up, what was he scared of etc. I feel it insulting to these good men when people of both genders excuse sexist behaviour/inappropriate behaviour as 'just the way men are'. It is not just how men are, but perhaps it is how they will act if society tells them that they should and tells women that they should let them.

[0phelia]

Because they like it.

(some) Men seem to love rape, having their pleasure with someone whether the victim wants it or not. Child rapist love raping and hurting children, they don't love children they hate them. Same with women. They hate women.

NAMALT.

[0phelia]

I am persuaded by men don't see women as human

Although I would extend it to say "men see themselves as more human than their human female counterparts and therefore allow themselves more leeway"

[AyeAmarok]

men don't see women as human

I guess something that reinforces that this might be the case in a lot of situations is that men, when hearing that a man has been raped by another man, consider that to be a much bigger deal than a woman being raped.

Men (and women, unfortunately) never seem to suggest that the man might have wanted it really, or was asking for it by being drunk/wearing a tight t-shirt.

Raping a man is always a clear cut and horrific crime.

Raping a woman? Not so much.

[scallopsrgreat]

I used to struggle with the whole "men don't see us as humans" line of thought. After all they talk to us, laugh with us, work with us, live with us even purport to love us. And of course being a woman I know I'm just as human as they are. How could they possibly not know this?

And then someone on here pointed out that EVERY single right we have won we've had to fight for. Men haven't turned round and gone "you know you are right - how could we have been so stupid of course you deserve the vote/not to be raped in marriage (or at all)/be responsible for your own money/earn the same/have bodily autonomy etc". They have resisted and resisted and resisted and still continue to resist and refuse to acknowledge the harm they do. If they really believed we were as human as they were, we would not have to fight for these rights and acknowledgements. They would just be given.

It is exactly the same with other oppressed groups. The oppressors don't acknowledge they are deserving of the same rank of human being as themselves otherwise they wouldn't treat them as they do.

[Felascloak]

Maybe for some of them it's a paraphilia/fetishist. This article says paraphilia are 20 times more common in men than women but doesn't explain why

www.hypersexualdisorders.com/sex-addiction/paraphilias-and-sex-addiction/

[VestalVirgin]

This article says paraphilia are 20 times more common in men than women but doesn't explain why

It's probably because men only have one X chromosome. If the one X chromosome is broken in some way, then that's it. Women can have the same problems if both X are broken, but that's rarer.

The Y chromosome is a highly parasitic life form; most of the two X-chromosomes women have isn't even active, as over the course of evolution, the X chromosome has taken over most of the Y-chromosome's functions. The Y chromosomes does nothing much except determining the development of male genitals. People with one X chromosome and no Y chromosome can survive. They just aren't able to have children. All vital functions are on the X chromosome, and the only thing the second X does for women is enable us to reproduce and acting as backup if the first X is damaged.

[0phelia]

I seriously wouldn't say paraphilias are linked to broken chromosomes.

Nurture rather than nature makes more sense. A paedophile or rapist learns his behaviour and blaming genetics only lets him off the hook.

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

So far I've had to Google NAMALT and paraphilia.

Just been back and reread Carols post. In a simple way I think the historical idea of needing persuading may well fit with my experience in marriage. It felt like the actions came from a place of thinking he knew best. He confusingly is one of those men who doesn't agree with page 3, goes against the grain re strip clubs etc. Its difficult to fit together all the different parts of him.

I think I have seen a lot of the just wanting sex and dehumanising behaviour too.

In particular re one male friend - who by anyone's standards would seem one of the "good guys" but despite the man who raped admitting what he'd done several years later they remain in contact. Ditto several others who were there when he admitted it (at a drunken lads piss up). I know that my nice friend thinks consent is a scary issue that could catch anyone out.

Makes it difficult to really know who the decent men are.

It's really interesting to think about having to fight for things like you outline scallopsrgreat.

It's all interesting to me actually, just a lot of new thinking and ideas I'm not familiar with.

I can only speak from my own limited experience rather than about ideas. It's good to read thoughts.

[VestalVirgin]

A paedophile or rapist learns his behaviour and blaming genetics only lets him off the hook.

Actually, no, I don't think so - not automatically in every society ever.
If we blame biology, we would have to keep them in prison (or some closed psychiatric facility, whatever) forever. The individual man would not be "blamed", but society would be safe, and that, in my book, is the most important thing.
If we think it is learnt, then it can be unlearnt, and they can be released as "healed".

Considering the repeat offender rate, I am not sure I am happy with the state of things as is.

You are, of course, right that in patriarchy, we are expected to just put up with the things that are blamed on male biology. But it doesn't have to be that way.

[JacquettaWoodville]

I think there is a general feeling that a woman having penetration she doesn't want is less of an issue than it happening to a man. Hence punters who will not appreciate that women from whom they buy consent are in the same position as they would be selling consent to a man.

Whether this is "Victorian" - women don't really like sex, they are just doing their duty - or something else - women are the sex class, sex is one of the things women are for - I don't know.

[boldlygoingsomewhere]

I wonder if it comes from thinking that women are meant to be penetrated and therefore on some level it's not so bad as a man experiencing unwanted penetration. So probably linked to the idea that women are the sex class...

[Destinysdaughter]

There is some research on the motivations of serial rapists.Makes chilling reading. www.sfgate.com/news/article/Four-types-of-serial-rapists-what-makes-them-3159973.php

[caroldecker]

On differences between reactions to male and female rape, it is imo just empathy. Raped women have, generally, had penetrative sex previously so it may seem not a big deal compared to a man, who is a 'virgin' in that sense.
The reaction to child rape and elder (pensioner) rape is similar to male rape, in that it is something they do not do, so is an offense to the victim.
Rape of women in the sexually active bracket, particularly non-dark alley rape is seen as something they do voluntarily with other penises, so what is the big deal?

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

So, I don't know how stupid a question this is, but what has been on my mind all day having reflected on the thread, is how do you live with the world as it is?

I mean how do you happily exist in society alongside men, not just get by. I know that as feminists you probably challenge, educate, change things. (I don't know what really? )

But with no energy for that how do i mentally reconcile with this place in life.

I've been trying to work this out from a couple of other threads running but haven't really got there.

I thought my.struggle was personal but it's way beyond my own circumstances.

[JacquettaWoodville]

The personal is political, sister

That's why women-focussed spaces like MN are so important, IMO. Gives us all a chance to realise it's not just us, it's systemic.

[RebelRogue]

Short answer because they can.
Long answer
-because the punishment is a joke
-because they've never been told no
-because they hate women/a woman/themselves/whatever and is about power and control
-because of myths like playing hard to get, no means maybe,she knows what she's going back for etc
-because some are unchallenged,excused and their transgressions minimised even when caught
-because if a woman is sexually active with someone means she'll be sexually active with anyone,including them
-because some see sex as a right
-because while the law has updated to cover all scenarios of rape the mentality hasn't and they would be genuinely appalled to be accused of rape
-because rape apologists still exist absolving them of at least half if not all responsibility
I could go on

[imwithspud]

Really interesting, but depressing thread.

I think I agree with most points mentioned and I think the reasons as to why men rape is probably a combination of all of them to an extent (some more than others, maybe?).

But the hating women, and not seeing them as human. That is the point that stood out to me the most for some reason. If you didn't hate women, you wouldn't abuse them in such a way. Surely? Because that's not how you treat the people you like in life.

[Lightbulbon]

Look at it another way: why do people not rape?

Non rapists have a 'profile'

Eg

Female
Pre pubescent
Have empathy
Respect others
No violent behaviours

Rapists aren't a homogenous group just as non rapists aren't. That is why they stay so well hidden and we all know them even though we don't know we know them.

Some people say rape is about control but I disagree. I think for some it is about sex. And an arrogance about their ability to elicit sex from another party without a thought to their feelings.

With rape within long term relationships, whether married or not I've heard women talk with the assumption that it is unreasonable for them to withhold sex. That is just chilling. How can we educate the perpetrators if the victims don't even know they are victims?