Why do (some) men sexually abuse/rape?

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

Can you help me understand why men sexually abuse. I've experienced a range from a pretty awful rape by a friend - to, in longterm marriage, a low level level of coercion and ignoring consent over certain small acts - and in years past experiences that fall in between like unwanted drunken sex.

This is just background to my post. I'm less concerned about addressing my individual circumstances, more in hearing thoughts about why men do this.

It seems to me like a lot of men to different degrees ignore or push the boundaries re consent. (Not all of course)

Are there explanations or understandings of this, including in a wider context, I don't know exactly what I'm asking. I just want to understand a bit more, like has this always been an issue throughout history? Was it understood differently? What is the link to gender roles? To biology? Are the different ends of the spectrum about the same thing?

I couldn't see another thread addressing this but happy to be directed.

[SailorBoyz]

Baggy smalls I’ll finish now. But you don’t know how I supported my wife or the outcome of that rape.

[TammyswansonTwo]

SailorBoyz if you've genuinely never harassed or demeaned a woman or even witnessed it, then that's great. I'd say you're in the minority, but it's great nonetheless. In my limited experience of men, and the experiences of the women I've known, it is certainly most men even if it's not all, to some extent, more or less.

[DJBaggySmalls]

SailorBoyz
When women talk about their experiences of sexual assault its not a good time to jump in and say 'not all men are like that' or announce you've never seen it or done it.
I dont know what you hope to achieve by it. We already know that. We are talking about 'men' as a biological class. If you havent raped anyone, then discussions about why men rape are obviously not talking about you personally.

Perhaps instead, you could consider how you would support your wife or daughter if she went through it?

[SailorBoyz]

Saz432 sorry to say I haven’t done anything that is in your second para. I must have been such a goody two shoes but I wasn’t aware of that. As a teenager I had a lot of girl cousins and was taught to respect them and hand on heart appart from fun fights, chases, board games nothing remotely yucky ever happened. Teenager well I had one girlfriend my life was the sea, fish industry, hard work long days and no sexual experience until my beloved wife came along. But there again looking back I didn’t feel I was strange/out of the ordinary. Also on looking back both my parents were Christians (sorry for that word) they must have made more of an impression than I though at the time. I must be weird or am I?

[spankhurst]

Because we live in a patriarchy and woman are 'the other'. Many men see non-men as lesser beings.

[Saz432]

Really? "Not all men"? Actually, to an extent it is all men, because that's what's normalised in our society.

I'm sure you've never raped anyone or explicitly continued with something despite them saying no. Maybe you've never catcalled a woman, told a strange woman to "smile" in the street, grabbed a bum in a club or tried to make a woman talk to you when she doesn't want to.

But I'll bet you've heard friends telling sexist jokes or comments, or bragging about what they've "gotten away with" in their latest relationship, and not pulled them up on it? I'll bet you've seen male colleagues acting inappropriately with female colleagues, whether that's making gross comments, speaking over them in meetings, mansplaining, taking credit for their ideas, and not done anything about it? I bet you have a mate that you know takes things a bit far but it's all harmless, right? Or when you were a teenager, you had mates who were coercing their girlfriends into sexual experiences and you didn't tell them to knock it off.

All of these things are part of the problem, they all contribute to this issue. I don't know many (or probably any) men who haven't at least been complicit in this culture. Having spoken to my husband he know when he's overstepped the mark or should have spoken up, especially as a younger man (and thank god I believe he's never actually assaulted anyone as I couldn't handle that at all). He's been completely non-defensive about the issue and about being informed that this is a problem that involves pretty much all men - the ones who get really defensive about this are the ones I know I cannot trust.

[Saz432]

I'm in a very similar situation to you OP - mutiple serious assaults and a rape by different men, plus child abuse too.

I used to buy into the rapist myth but as time has gone by I've started to understand why and how this is so prevalent - the men doing most of the assaulting have literally NO idea that's what they're doing. To them it's normal to push a woman's boundaries, ignore a no or a lack of enthusiasm as long as they get what they want. This attitude usually starts as a teenager and when they see how much they can get away with there's no reason for them to stop.

Was talking to my husband about this and he was quite stunned as he realised the true spectrum of abuse particularly when you include coercion. He told me that every sexual partner he's ever had has wanted to avoid specific activities because they'd "had a bad experience" previously and he's only just realising what that really means. Fortunately he's one man who's never tried to do things I don't want to do.

I think the thing that really opened my eyes to this was the Reddit "ask a rapist" thread. Now I understand that there aren't rapists and good guys, everyone is on that spectrum, I get really angry when I saw guys putting all this stuff at the door of predators rather than your average guy, who's responsible for almost all of these incidents. It will never change until this is understood

[SailorBoyz]

Hello Ladies just my take on this topic mainly because my beloved was raped by a visiting German tutor at teacher training college. Well I’ve been a travelling engineer and mixed with some tough guys but appart from vulgarities from some not all I’ve not seen much abuse in my workplace. I feel it’s done by men in positions ( as they see it) of power and girls / women feel fearful of their job security and also in the case of my wife she was a young student with no previous boyfriends and did she think this was normal behaviour of men, well! it’s not mine and as far as I know my male close friends behaviour. I think it’s easy for some people to say speak out but when your young and naive it’s not easy. But to finish I love and respect my wife and three now grown up daughter’s and this man has never disrespected any lady/woman. Will the mindset change for some men well sadly I don’t but just remember gals not all men are like you know who.
Take care ladies

[PreemptiveSalvageEngineer]

If the second version makes you say "oh, steady on, jumping to conclusions a bit, aren't you?", then try thinking about why you believe the first one, and not the second, when the evidence tells us that the second is more plausible?

This. THIS! Perfect.

Of course, the answer is: because if people started thinking like that, men couldn't get away with - literally -murder.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

Fucking hell, UNDERSTANDABLE? Like a family annihilation is just one of those things?!

If ever there was an illustration of the narrative being shaped around men, here it is - Nice Guy (TM), crazed with love for his wife and children, devastated at the thought of losing them, sort of accidentally murders them in completely unforeseeable and yet completely understandable manner that demonstrates just how much he loved them.

It's a different story if you write: after years of abuse, a woman and her daughter escape from a controlling and angry man. Driven to a murderous rage at the prospect of the loss of control of two of his possessions, he chooses to cold bloodedly murder them rather than allow this to happen, and then kills himself to escape justice.

If the second version makes you say "oh, steady on, jumping to conclusions a bit, aren't you?", then try thinking about why you believe the first one, and not the second, when the evidence tells us that the second is more plausible?

I hate hate HATE how they always wheel in a bunch of people who barely know the guy to tell us what a stand-up chap he was. I bet if you dig down a little deeper, it's a different story. And the women just get erased all over again in the service of whitewashing male violence. Despicable.

[PreemptiveSalvageEngineer]

I read that article today, lunch-ish. I'm still spitting nails over it!!!

I hadn't even registered the "sons who didn't get murdered" part of it.

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

It's thoroughly depressing. At least I understand a bit more now about why it feels so miserable.

[SomeDyke]

In terms of violence against women in general, we have the recent double murder of Charlotte and Claire Hart, and this article by Laura Bates:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2016/jul/26/womans-murder-called-understandable-lance-hart

which explains how reporting that seeks to make the murderers actions 'understandable' (he murdered his wife because she wanted to/had left him), in effect blames her for leaving, whilst is more puzzled by the murder of the innocent bystander in this case (the 19 year-old daughter).

Except both these murders become 'understandable' if you recognise that the problem is men who view women as not-persons. Wives/daughters (even adults), and small children are responsibilities/property not independent persons.

They also had two adult sons. So even if you accept the murder of a wife who wants to leave as 'understandable', why then also murder the adult daughter? Unlike smaller children, you don't have the 'take them with me/shouldn't be left alone' excuse. Reports seem to indicate he shot the wife, then his daughter, then himself. If his daughter had been left alive, what harm could she have done? She couldn't exactly make things worse for his memory by letting her brothers know what he had done. The only explanation I can see that fits is that this shows that he viewed his wife and his daughter as not-persons/property, in a way very different to how he viewed his two adult sons.

And then, of course, we have the reporting of the community, which seems to consist of the usual, what a nice chap, we're all very shocked, he must have flipped/gone mad..............

If seemingly ordinary men can do this to their wives and daughters, is it really that surprising that seemingly ordinary men can also rape? All male violence......................

[KindDogsTail]

I saw by chance, looking these things up that Anthony Burgess's wife was gang raped by four American deserting soldiers in the blackout in London, and miscarried her baby as a result. Clockwork Orange partly had this in mind apparently. She became an alcoholic who drank herself to death as a result of the rape.

I just watched a film about Vietnam soldiers giving their testaments.
One soldier said he was giving this testament because:
"i didn't like being an animal and I didn't like seeing others being turned into animals either...it's hurt a whole generation of Americans and Vietnamese & that's the whole atrocity."

One soldier said they were never told the Geneva Conventions before they went. Another said they were given the idea the people they were attacking weren't real people. Another said he had thought; "There is someone senior to me here & if this is not SOP (standard operating procedure) someone would stop it."

[PreemptiveSalvageEngineer]

Vestal, thanks for the clarification (for current times anyway, but do you know how it was back in the 40s?). Hope I didn't cause offence.

What I was trying to say was, as Stars and Stripes is really only available to the military, I believe the article was not intended for the eponymous Frauleins, but for the GIs to feel less guilt about raping (or at least using) German women. Haven't read the article, but I'm sure it's be a propaganda cringe-fest.

[RebelRogue]

Felas you're quite right. Anecdotal evidence, but back home everyone knows "you do not question orders,you obey orders". And that was mostly made by breaking the new recruits spirits. Humiliation,battery, not allowing them to read /open letters/packages from home(the only true connection with the outside world), cleaning toilets with toothbrushes etc add to that the fact that there was no escape for two years,that it was mandatory and you had no escape unless disabled or rich and you ended up killing yourself,a robot or a bit/a lot fucked up for life even if you didn't end up joining in The end. There have been cases where recruits have been "punished" by the "higher ups" by sending a team to rape their girlfriends. Some men don't just see women as disposable,they see everyone under them disposable. And it's a horrifying thing to live through...hence the suicide rates when army service was mandatory.

[KindDogsTail]

In this article
inthesetimes.com/article/3848/
it does seem there is also evidence for rapist types joining the army in the first place, previous civilian crimes of violence being waived so they will be accepted into the army, huge mysogyny in the training, female army personnel getting raped and being treated as though the men are entitled to them.

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

Actually should have out some thought in rather than rambling thoughts! Not much worth answering in that.

[Felascloak]

As I understand it army training is designed to put recruits under short periods of high stress. Under high stress the brain becomes more plastic and so new neural connections are made and new behaviours learnt. The army aims to rewire soldiers to follow orders without question. (I've had a quick Google for a link but not found anything very accessible so I hope I'm not recalling this wrong!)

This is obviously risky if the orders themselves are unethical but may explain why the Nazis could gas the Jews and why the Red Army could rape and murder on order.

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

I see what you are both saying, and I (obviously) know little about this.

I suppose I didn't think all soldiers detached from the humanity of their enemy. I thought many of them were tormented by what they have to do. It's different fighting an enemy "army" than raping a village of innocent civilians afterwards. I thought thst required something different.

But I know nothing g of the training.
Under threat from seniors is a different factor I wasn't thinking about.

Yes I can see it probably does happen like you say Jacquetta. Does this fit with where I was starting from that many men can abuse in the "right" circumstances. Eg, Particularly unpleasant privileged rugger bugger culture at my school for example caused a terrible environment.

I don't mean to minimise war and it's impact. But maybe I just did. Maybe other circumstances are simply never comparable.

I can see that I have a very vague notion of what war and it's issues, training are like. Haven't thought through.

Skewed perspective. Those who I know who joined the army are a certain type. Including the violent rapist - now senior respected position.

I wasn't thinking about situations like DRC. Feels like quite different issues. Maybe not.

[KindDogsTail]

Apart from a state of stress, rage, being wired up with amphetamines for combat readiness, this below is also the sort of thing I was wondering about - in regard to what I had described as relatively innocent young men, who I thought might not have been rapists in ordinary life, becoming rapists in war.

I am quoting below from this article
www.womenundersiegeproject.org/blog/entry/why-soldiers-rapeand-when-they-dontin-diagrams

One of the more hopeless reasons soldiers have committed rape in DRC may be that they wanted to avoid violence from superiors. Rape also creates what researchers call “unit cohesion”—a kind of nasty socialization in which soldiers find something terrible they have now in common.

It leaves a bad taste—if peer pressure and a beating is enough to cause men to commit such horrible acts, what hope is there for a rape-free world ?

There are also those child soldiers who are made to kill their parents and rape to de-sensitise them and make them into violence machines.

[JacquettaWoodville]

Trying, yes, I would think so. If you have detached from the enemy's humanity enough to kill them, which is built up by culture and training , why not to rape them?

[VestalVirgin]

@tryingtomakesense: Yeah, me too - I thought the statements related to dress were by the lad mags, while the ones that were more like "I did this" were by rapists, but you really can't see any difference.

Maybe I'm so overwhelmed by the hugeness if it, but I can't get past the [absurdity] of the Stars & Stripes article title: why TF would a German speaking woman be reading an English-language article in a publication available mainly/only to US armed forces?*

I am a German speaking woman who reads almost only English-language articles on the internet. Not sure how one would find a publication that'sonly available to US armed forces, but in Germany, almost everyone speaks English, so this is not as implausible as you might think it is.

There is a problem with sexual assault within the forces, as well as that perpetrated by them on non-combatants. I was reading an academic paper a couple of days ago, which was about trauma among female services personnel. There were a few things listed as causes that you would expect, such as combat stress. But prominent on the list was sexual trauma. I found it quite disturbing that sexual assault from one's own (supposed) comrades was being talked about in the same terms as the danger that all services personnel face when they go into conflict

And this is one of the reasons why abolishing the obligatory military service in Germany was the only way to go if you wanted to treat women and men the same - imagine women being forced into an environment where the men rape that much!
(I actually think that military units should be sex segregated until the rape epidemic is under control, or if men continue to rape, forever. It is just inacceptable that being raped by "comrades" is considered a risk attached to the job.)

[tryingtomakesenseoflife]

Should say, I didn't look at the links so my comments are in response only to the thoughts posted.

[PreemptiveSalvageEngineer]

That first link (human loot) is horrendous. I even clicked onto the next page (about the children).

Maybe I'm so overwhelmed by the hugeness if it, but I can't get past the [absurdity*] of the Stars & Stripes article title: why TF would a German speaking woman be reading an English-language article in a publication available mainly/only to US armed forces?

*except, chillingly, it's not absurd. It's nastily calculating, innit...