Women losing custody of ambition

[ThreadandInk]

A great Ted talk about the barriers, and our complicity.

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=CKoyexdhA2s

Thanks Amai. Yes I do remember your previous thread - the Dh is ex-military isn't he?

Good luck to your children.

Vestal - I'm truly sorry to hear you've encountered such a range of b**ds. I hope you can find someone who shifts your expectations.

Thank you, that's very nice of you, but ... thing is, I really don't think they were so exceptionally bad. I think they were rather average. Some of them a bit socially awkward, and desperate for a girlfriend, but average. That's the problem.

If I could tell myself that they were all assholes, and I just had exceptionally bad luck, well, then things might be different. But it seems those are the guys I would have to put up with if getting heterosexually partnered.

("It is okay for abortion to be technically illegal and only unpunished in specific circumstances, because I like to feel morally superior and don't care if it is much easier to take your bodily autonomy away because of this" - guy is even related to me. Happily married. Nice person in everyday life. Still doesn't think his wife and daughters should have their human rights written in the constitution.)

To be honest, I think most women wouldn't even notice if a guy behaved like this, or held opinions like this.

I suspect that expecting 100% loyalty to me and therefore to all women as far as the law is concerned, makes me rather an exception than the norm.

And how many SAHMs really ask their husband whether he promotes women to top positions in his business? I suppose most just assume that their husband isn't a misogynist and of course gives everyone totally equal opportunities wherever he is in charge.

The concepts described here really struck a chord with me.

In the past I have had discussions with colleagues (male and female) about why although at least 50% of the junior staff were female hardly any of the most senior positions were held by women. Most people seemed aghast at the suggestion that somehow women might be disadvantaged in the workplace. The general consensus of opinion seemed to be that female staff were given the same opportunities as male staff but just chose not to taken them. The fact that none of the women in senior positions had children was actually used by one (male) colleague to back up this idea- he claimed that women had the same opportunities but that when they had children a lot of them chose to prioritise their families and that this is nothing to do with any discrimination at work. In my opinion what was actually going on was that women were allowed ( by the men in charge) to succeed whilst ever they were playing by the same rules as the men (ie. career before family, no other responsibilities, aggressively pushing to the top etc).

As espresso3 pointed out, it is interesting that in many workplaces all the career development/team building seems to focus around male traits. I remember many events based on motor racing, golf, football, heavy drinking etc. Whilst many women clearly enjoy these things too it was very clear that these were really days out for the boys and the 'girl' joining the party needed to prove that she was just as much a 'lad'.

I also think it's interesting what this video shows us about women being complicit in our mistreatment. As I've said above, I know lots of women who believe that workplace sexism is a thing of the past but even more women who do all (or nearly all) the domestic work/nursery and school runs etc despite their husbands working in a similar job.

I like the 'cinderella' theory someone posted about too- almost everyone one of my married friends with children (myself included) actually married a man with a similar level of education or who was slightly less educated than themselves. But now that we are all middle aged with children the women are SAHM or work part time whilst the men work full time and have progressed in their careers more than their wives. I think that what happens to women's career prospects/real choices when they have children is really concerning.

I feel encouraged by the women political leaders. Even when I do not agree with all they do, I admire them. I grew up never thinking for a moment I could do what men do. It never even occurred to me that I could. Yet here they are doing so well, in their own way - and better than men it often seems - the Queen included, even without drinking and golf.

Vestal - I do agree with your point about how much is just "assumed". I can't think of any men I know that would presume to have have strong views on something like abortion though - unless this is something that's affected them or they have particular religious views. Then again, I never really tend to ask these questions, as you say.

Chunky - I think you basically sum it up. I asked DH last night why there are no women on the board in his organisation. He looked slightly perplexed as to why I was taking this line of questioning , but basically said that there are certainly no barriers to anyone's progression etc - also that they have done a lot to improve flexible working hours and extended maternity pay for women. He then went on to say that having women in the board would be good for some of them (meaning certain male colleagues of his) because they would have to tone it down a bit. When I asked what he meant by "tone it down" he said - "Well, you know, you can't really be kicking off or raising your voice too much when there's women in the room"

So there it is - another invisible barrier under the guise of "nice men" behaviour!

Well that's basically saying, "Well of course we could let women into certain positions because we're all so PC after all, but if it means we have to change our default mode of behaviour, then we can't really be bothered, come to think of it".

I remember when a local private boys school was going to begin taking in girls one reason given was that it would help mitigate against laddish behaviour and the boys thinking it was cool not to work hard - so bringing the girls would drive the standards up.

I could not help feeling the girls were being used for the boys' sake.

This thread has reminded me of the Grayson Perry documentary on 'Masculinity" a few months ago - (no doubt it was discussed on here). When presented with the artwork of a huge phallus which Perry had created to symbolise what he saw as the essence of the corporate world, nearly all the men (city bankers) featured in the documentary were quite insulted.

I myself am one of the (very few) women who work at a senior level in the kind of environment depicted in this documentary. I am mainly London based. I am now late-40s, in a relationship for the last few years, but no children - and I now realise that this has been the compromise of surviving in my chosen field at this level. My male colleagues are pretty much exactly as described above - highly educated, very 'gentlemanly' and would be horrified to think they had made a woman feel excluded or slighted in any way. But I think the intransigence that pervades the top echleons of the corporate sector is basically to do with the level of drive and singlemindedness required to get there - being prepared to work way 'above and beyond' and not to worry if it means treading on some toes as you go. It is for this reason that its almost exclusively men at this level. Yes they generally do have wives who, despite their own qualifications, don't work, but I don't sneer at these women in any way. These men are high-maintenance and it takes a certain kind of wife or partner to be able to deal with them. I know this from my own experience - it took me years to find a partner who can cope with me!

samba1a
Thank you, it is very interesting to hear what it what you have to say from the basis of your actual experience.

Thanks for your insights Samba - I didn't see that documentary but it doesn't sound surprising!

"would be horrified to think they had made a woman feel excluded or slighted in any way" I'm sure they would be horrified to be perceived as excluding women. I'm not sure that they would be horrified enough to actually change their behaviour though.

I'm quite surprised people thought Vestal's experience were out of the ordinary or unlucky. I can name men I know with all of those traits. Several times over. I don't think I've got a particularly unusual bunch of friends/acquaintances/colleagues. I mean the sexual entitlement example - 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted/raped so that type of behaviour clearly isn't unusual. Neither is mansplaining your feelings to you/minimising porn (hell women do that on a regular basis on MN)/minimising the effects of sexism (happens every time a woman opens her mouth on the internet about sexism)/unwanted opinions on abortions (blow me down with a feather on that one - just look at the US if you want to see men telling women what they should be doing with their bodies!).

This is a very good talk. I particularly like her pointing out the trade off between likability and ambition, I have definitely seen it.

The other thing I have seen plenty of is nice guy misogyny. It was not just men with SAHW actually it was usually men who in spite of having a WOHW still traditional division of childcare/housework responsibilities existed as per the description of the factory woman in the ted talk. They are nearly worse IMHO. They are the ones who are quite happy to see the break down of traditional roles where it benefits men I.e providing for the family.