Last night I was at a party and I need to talk about it.

[KeepsAwayTheNargles]

It started with a BBQ at 2, so early. There still weren't many of us there at 3 and after a throwaway comment I made that I now can't actually remember a young guy I don't know leant over and said "Oh, so you're a feminist, are you?" like it was a dirty word, which honestly hasn't happened to me in a few years.

Later on, he came over to me when I was talking to a friend and DH, and started apologising "if [he'd] offended me". I told him that he hadn't, after which he informed me that it was just that he'd "love to talk to you about your opinions, because I really think I can show you that you're wrong"

I politely declined as I just wanted to have a relaxed evening with my friends. He kept asking, saying repeatedly that it was okay if I didn't want to but then asking again. Eventually I just wanted him to shut up and go away, so I said "go on then, say what you want to say to me and I'll give you the response you're after".

Basically what followed was a 3.5 hour long debate (which kept me away from my DH and friends) during which I tried to help a young (24), clearly misguided 'nice guy' misogynist see the light, at least a little. Every now and then someone would ask what we were talking about - he would tell them he was "correcting my opinions" (I don't think he realised but everyone else at the party was very obviously on my side!).

After about 3 hours his 'loo breaks' and 'getting a drink' breaks increased, so I asked if he wanted to stop the conversation (it was pretty intense). He insisted that he didn't, then would follow it with things like "I'll be back to mentally own you in a minute".

But his confidence broke down, and in the end it turned out he had had an abusive childhood, had control issues, and his ex had accused him of raping her multiple times, he hated himself for this, and had turned his anger outward to feminism as well as inward on himself (obviously with good reason). He cried a lot, I could see the great deal of pain he was in (whilst obviously being devastated for his poor ex). I tried at this point to reassure him that I didn't think he was an evil person, that we all do bad things and he should allow himself to feel the pain of what had happened and learn from it moving forward in life. After a few minutes he basically ran off to cry/break down in the bathroom and I went and got our mutual friend to take over with him, feeling a but of a shit to be honest.

So basically I'm struggling with me feelings about this incident and I'm trying to process it and really need to talk about it. I used to be very politically active and relish these conversations even though pre-DS I wasn't very good at them but now I actively avoid them because with a toddler and trying to have a life I just don't have the headspace at the moment, so my activism is passive at present.

I'm confused. I am...

• proud of myself for breaking through/winning the debate/beating the misogynist
• annoyed that he didn't at any point see the irony of him forcing himself on me verbally, not listening when I told him no multiple times, not listening when I told him his body language was aggressive (tall so kind of towering over me, gesticulating close to my face while doing his nice-guy-pensive patronising face and beard-stroking)
• very upset and worried about the young man who when I left was still crying on friends sofa and basically having a total breakdown
• hoping this will be a positive breakthrough moment in his life
• worried it will be a triggering awful moment in his life and lead to depression/self injury
• pissed off at my self for worrying about him when I didn't want the conversation and he literally asked for it.

He seemed so confident that he could "break me" right up to the point that I broke him. I don't know how to feel about the most successful debate of my life, because of the end result. Its so complicated - if he had won and made me cry no doubt he would feel bad but not like I do because I'm socialised to care more. But on the other hand it seems a bit Grown Ass Woman Who Knows Her Shit vs. Upstart Man-Boy With Heap Of Personal Pain and though I didn't know it was an unfair fight when I gave in after his pushing, its clear to me now that it was.

And I also hate myself for feeling it was unfair etc and like I should've gone easier on him because really that's ridiculous.

Sorry for the essay but I could really use some external thoughts/reassurances on this :( I've been out of the game for a while anyway and this has really thrown me!

It's abusive not to leave someone alone when asked. Feminism isn't a party trick to be wheeled out on the whim of some guy at a party.

I usually use feminism to get rid of that kind of guy. Like "Yup, I'm a feminist, and that's why I don't want to have anything to do with you, bye."

However, I was fortunate enough to never have been at a party where that kind of guy was invited.

What exactly are you confused about? Do you not have much of a social life?

I don't have much of a social life, and even I know the phenomenon of being coerced into doing things I don't want to do.

One would have to either never leave the house (and have a nice family who never does this, too) or be a man. Or probably both, since I am sure even men are sometimes persuaded to watch films they don't really like.

Nargles do you think if it had been you who had ended up crying in the bathroom, that he'd be soul-searching over it today?

3.5 hours??
How utterly tedious.

Do you think if he'd managed to teach you that you were 'wrong' and broken you down to a nervous snivelling wreck that he'd feel anything other that bloody pleased with himself today?

He wouldn't be worrying about like this, don't waste your time worrying about him

X-posted with Boulevard!

Boulevard and AyeAmarok no, I think he would've tried to apologise at the time but then possibly/probably laughed at me internally for being unable to debate and I don't think he'd care today, no.

Hearing so many of you point that out has made me feel way less guilty! I won't be worrying about it any more I don't think :)

Like I knew logically I shouldn't care but it helps to hear it from others. Still cant believe I actually won a debate to be honest, I'm usually rubbish and am the one who ends up upset and having to stop! Leaving the usually male other party feeling smug. You're right, they never care.

I suggest you work on being ruder.

As MN says, or not 'Fuck off' is an entire sentence.

Nah, they just see it as proof of their superiority.

Us silly laydeez try and set ourselves up against them and only end up getting upset. We really ought to

Well done Keeps! Sounds like you did him and any future GF a favour.

Nargles I'm a teacher (not in a school, but with young people who have a myriad of issues) and one of my girls told me the other day she 'hated feminists'.

Anyway, I spent a long time after class (about two hours) debating with her....she had seen a lot of crappy stuff on Facebook about feminists wanting to ban Father's Day blah blah and decided that feminists were shits. So I spent sooo much time talking to this very angry and disaffected young woman, and she at the end said that she understood feminism for what it is.

She genuinely believed it was about running men down, not building women up. She was happy to let go of those false beliefs and that tells me she was sincere and interested. I suppose the difference in her and your man is that my student wasn't interested in winning anything. She was genuinely interested.

I think the fellow you were talking to saw it as a game to be won, and drink took over his emotions. In his sober light of day you will be cast as the hardcore enemy. I wouldn't worry about him.

He sounds utterly tiresome & unpleasant. Loads of people have bad shit in their past, and they don't become like him

Yes. Sorry I can't see why you bothered engaging with him at all.

You were at a party, he was unpleasant and a bore. I really don't buy into this women are so socialised into being pleasant to everyone. I had no difficulty at all avoiding a tedious woman acquaintance who always gets drunk and maudlin at parties.

I'm sure I would've had "no difficulty at all" avoiding him if he hadn't been following me around pestering me and refusing to drip it no matter how many times I asked him to

*drop it, not drip it. Clearly ready for bed now!

" I had no difficulty at all avoiding a tedious woman acquaintance who always gets drunk and maudlin at parties."

Yes.

Women are nearly always much easier to avoid than men.

They don't have quite the same sense of entitlement to your attention.

Oh come off it. This was a BBQ in someone's house ?, the OP's husband and other friends were there. It really can't be that difficult to find someone else to speak to.

Literally coming up to me, leaning into my eyeline and talking at me over and over. You weren't there. He was interrupting me every few minutes.

Some posters seem obsessed with holding me responsible for him point blank refusing to leave me alone

If someone was harassing me so aggressively at a party there is no way I would sit down with him and talk for 3.5 hours!
You are mad!
Work on your boundaries!

He made you feel responsible for his bad behaviour. Part of his pattern, particularly with women, by the sound of it.

You engaged with him and now feel responsible for his bad behaviour. Really look at why you did that.

I'm all for a bit of education, but 3+ hours of bothering you is abusive. Feminists can just hang out at barbecues too without having to justify themselves. I'm very angry on your behalf that you had to put up with it.

Some posters seem obsessed with holding me responsible for him point blank refusing to leave me alone

Yep, you'll find that. Some people really do believe that women need to take responsibility for what men do to them and how men behave. It's quite frightening.

If he'd lunged at you and kissed you at the end of the discussion they'd say that would have been your fault too as you'd "led him on" Just ignore them.

Jesus - I remember parties when I was younger spend avoiding some bloke or other - and they weren't enjoyable parties, always ducking out of conversations he joined and scouting out rooms before going in..

Given the alternative of having someone pester me all night, spend the afternoon avoiding them at a small party, or sit and exercise my feminist chops, I would have the discussion, even if I would prefer to do none of those (back in the day it wasn't discussion they were after so avoidance was a better choice ).

ChocChoc exactly why I chose the conversation glad someone else would too, I really didn't want to leave the party (we were the transport for a close friend so we'd have had to drag him away too).

Back when I was young and single the ones trying to bait the feminist were invariably also aiming to get in my pants, presumably as the ultimate point-scoring like that was ever gonna happen. I guess having an owner a husband generally puts them off that bit these days! Simultaneous annoyed and the implications and thankful for that...

I can absolutely see how this situation could happen. Unpleasant person at a party latches on to you, it becomes clear they won't leave you alone unless you leave, you feel like standing your ground, you think 'I'm not going to be intimidated out of this social situation by this arsehole', you engage in the conversation and take the opportunity to put across your beliefs and values, clearly, articulately, etc. You also might think, 'this person is young enough to be able to change his mind', or possibly 'it's rare that I come across someone with an opposing viewpoint who will state it so plainly and discuss it - this is kind of fascinating.'

None of this suggests to me that you have boundary problems / lack of assertiveness / that you are somehow responsible for his meltdown. You've explained that you miss political activism, that you did get something out of the exchange.

It sounds like this man is very troubled. Like others on the thread, I think the chances are that he will be overwhelmed with shame this morning about exposing his vulnerability, and will redouble his defensive arrogance / misogyny / beard-stroking nice guy routine. That's not your fault at all.

It sounds like you showed him a lot of compassion, which was an incredibly mature and generous thing to do, and enabled him to feel OK enough with you to talk about the self-loathing that is the source (or one of them) of his misogyny. You also treated him like an adult, in debating with him rather than dismissing him as a young upstart. You showed him respect as a human being, and modelled for him what that looks like.

I think there's more of a chance that you got through to him in some way, than there would have been had you told him to fuck off / left the BBQ / etc. It wasn't your responsibility to try to change his mind, or to talk to him at all - but in some sense it's part of what you want to be able to do as a feminist: have a dialogue to further the cause of equality.

It sounds very upsetting - but also quite an interesting encounter for you both, and for others there. I hope you're feeling OK.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was your fault when I said to be ruder.

I just find that use of bad language can be useful to nudge someone's thinking away from their 'this cute little lady won't hurt me, I can bother her as much as I like' assumption.

I would also have had the discussion particularly if I had been drinking. I had a similar barney about the Iraq war at the time and I was right